“How on earth could a school disentitle a student from pursuing studies just because he has kept a beard?” It’s a fair question, and significant because it was raised by the Bench of India’s Supreme Court.
Of course we are talking about an Indian Muslim student, Mohammad Salim, who was expelled from Nirmala Convent Higher Secondary School in Madhya Pradesh because he had decided to keep his beard. The Indian Supreme Court agreed with Salim, stating, “There will be no end to such prima facie ridiculous rules. Tomorrow the school authorities would say they would not allow entry to students who are not fair in complexion.”
This ruling is rather interesting because a few months ago the Indian Supreme Court not only dismissed Salim’s appeal, but peppered him with the now infamous “Talibanisation” comment. The Bench was quick to recall its order along with an apology for the unwarranted comment. That was welcome news, but no one can return to Salim the year of school he lost; no one can repay him for his anxiety, suffering and humiliation.
Whether it involves a hijab or a beard, Muslim students often find themselves embroiled in a struggle to pursue their identity. The ban on wearing hijab in public schools in France and discrimination against Muslim students in India perpetuates a culture of hatred.
Salim’s story is a matter of personal freedom. I understand that schools must have a code of conduct, but if the code of conduct clashes with personal freedom, it is the latter that must prevail.
Does this school discriminate against students who wear bindi on their foreheads? Are the Sikhs allowed to wear turbans? Should the Jews be expelled from school for wearing skullcaps? Should the Christians be prohibited from wearing a cross? My guess would be no, since this is a Catholic school.
Indians have always presented themselves as being a model of religious pluralism; they have always maintained that they can coexist with Muslims, and that Muslims even have the potential to grow as a minority.
Nothing can be further from truth!
Muslims, it is often said, are India’s new untouchables. Three years ago the Indian government commissioned a report on the “Status of the Muslim Community,” popularly known as Sachar Report, which exposed a country that is anything but “plural.”
The Sachar report concluded that literacy rates among Muslims were much below the national average. Twenty-five percent of Muslim children ages 6-14 have either never attended school or have dropped out. Stating the obvious, the report says that expansion of educational opportunities since Independence has not led to a convergence of attainment levels between Muslims and all others. Dropout rates among Muslims are higher at the level of primary, middle and higher secondary schools. The disparity in graduation attainment rates since the 1970s is widening between Muslims and all other categories in both urban and rural areas.
A shameful fact to bear in mind: Only one out of 25 undergraduate students and one out of 50 postgraduate students in Indian colleges and universities are Muslim. Unemployment rate among Muslim graduates is the highest among all socio-religious communities.
Indians have often argued that Muslim parents hold their children back from attending mainstream schools. The report busted this myth, acknowledging that Muslim parents are not averse to mainstream education or to sending their children to affordable government schools. “Access to government schools for Muslim children is limited. There is non-availability of schools within easy reach for girls at lower levels,” the Sachar Committee reports.
It is heartening to know that in a country where Muslims have so little rights, minimal access to resources, and are discriminated against every day, the judicial victory of a young man, Mohammad Salim, is still possible. Hats off to him for taking legal recourse, and for fighting to get his seat at the school back. What this young man and his parents have done is exemplary; when faced with injustice, he did not turn to violence but instead engaged the justice system. He used digital media, community resources and everything he possibly could to amplify his voice.
I am hoping India’s justice system will ensure that this young man is compensated for time and emotional distress to a tune that will prohibit others from discrimination.
Here’s a message for the Indian government: Gandhi said, “The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” May I suggest replacing “animals” with “minorities” to start? When you treat your minorities so poorly, your love for animals is anything but sincere.
September 15th, 2009 at 11:32 pm
Muhammad Salim has done a great job.. i really admire wht he has done for his own sake..But the matter of fact is this that as the writer mentioned the equation “Only one out of 25 undergraduate students and one out of 50 postgraduate students in Indian colleges and universities are Muslim” indian government shud seriously be thinking of resolving this issue..Because no matter they are muslims at the same time they are indian citizens and they represents india..So is that ok with the indian government to treat his people in this way…
September 16th, 2009 at 12:44 am
you should worry about minorities in pakistan. we treat minorities much better than pakis. mulims are backwards because they inbreed and have low IQ.
September 16th, 2009 at 5:16 am
Infact India has become a state of Hindu extremism, all the minorities specially christians and muslims have always been deprived of their just rights. Even lower casts of Hindus doesn’t have equal rights as upper casts have. What a shame!
September 16th, 2009 at 5:28 am
guys guys guys……… lemme clear u one thing you are saying in india muslims dun have freedom or they don get the deservd justice lemme tel u one thing india is the most beautiful country in this whole world it gives freedom to ppl to have rght to preach…..okkkkk n as far as equal ryts is concernd muslim’s no doubt had been backward i mean in education n ol butt but buttttt now they are cuming forward into the main stream okk so dun blame ne particular religion fuh this apne aap ko dekho……
n c india is not hindu onlyy okkkkk m proud of having great muslim brother here i havee countless frndss who r muslims,,,,,,, soo brithr jus live in peace and harmony this is 21st century globalisation brothrhood we r not adi manav’s that we will be fighting n ol sooo keep unitd maah brotherrrsss
September 16th, 2009 at 5:32 am
n for ol you Paki’s mind ur own business dudes look at you…..n cummon man dun ever compare us from u…… muslims n india are more than ur whole population n remember wod r muslim cleric told to musharrafff… MIND UR OWN PAKISTAN bombd by american everyday……..we will be happy if u can promote harmony not hatrd btw both of the countries…… bahut hua yaar khoon kharaba
PEACEeee
September 16th, 2009 at 5:35 am
well
with one particular case of beard is not enough to say that India is against any religion, a mistake was committed on the part of the school but it has been rectified with court order. You can say whatever u want in India because we respect freedom of speech but do u have enough guts to say it in French world where u will b crushed at once. Well this a matter of our state and we had handled it well but what about ur land which is on the verge of loosing it sovereignty once again. I have full sympathy with the loss of year of that innocent kid and i would like to appreciate his faith in justice of this nation which takes care of all and respect every religion. I hope with this particular example authorities and law makers in Pakistan would take some lesson about how to take care of religion and respect religion.
September 16th, 2009 at 5:36 am
ol apoligies if i saaid nething wrong even we indians want peace with u may god bless u also in these har tyms sooooo peace bhadhaoooo bhaioo
September 16th, 2009 at 5:38 am
rytly said jitu bhai……
^_^
September 16th, 2009 at 6:02 am
When a Chinese intellectual recently called India a hindu state, I was surprised by his clarity. India claims to be secular but let us hope it becomes a pluralistic society and country. Pakistan, on the other hand follows discrimination un-apologetically under the garb of religion. You quoted Mahatama Gandhi, “The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” Let me say, the greatness of India and its moral progress can be judged by the way its muslims are treated.
September 16th, 2009 at 6:21 am
oooops so u calling muslims as animals?? huh
September 16th, 2009 at 6:34 am
The issue that you have brought up here is a very complex one having no straight, simple explanation. The affluent Muslims who have assimilated have no problem whatsoever in India. The problem lies with the poor Muslims who are invariably illiterate and this causes them to be very easily influenced by Mullahs who profess ‘imminent threat to Islam in India by the evil majority’. This causes poor Muslims to cut off from the mainstream. I am an Indian Engineering student and has seen a case of a Muslim student isolating himself from the general campus population by saying it is ‘haraam’ to mingle with ‘kaafir’ Hindus. This mentality is developed in some of the Muslims by creating fear psychosis by some self interest groups like some Mullahs and corrupt politicians who mislead the illiterate, poor Muslim population to serve their own ends. This kind of mentality has led to gradual marginalization of India’s very own citizens of the minority community from mainstream India.
About Government schools, I’d like to put it on record that no human being is ever discriminated. This is due to various reasons which I’ll state some other time (that too is a huge list). The problem with government schools is lack of discipline. This results in only the most brilliant students shining and rising high from there. It does not have anything to do with any caste or creed.
About Pakistani minorities, I’d like to say, we in India read articles in The Times of India of Pakistani Hindus and Sikhs abandoning their ancestral homes in Pakistan to escape persecution by migrating to India. See
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/Fearing-Taliban-Pak-Hindus-take-Thar-Express-to-India/articleshow/4992774..
Forget Pakistani minorities who seem to be doomed right now. Think about the majority Muslims. Most of them do suffer a lot due to corruption and apathy of Affluent Pakistani zamindaars. If ever a right minded Muslim in Pakistan raises his voice, he would surely be labeled Blasphemous, though he wouldn’t have insulted Islam. Religion has become that magic wand in Pakistan which has been misused by self interest groups to persecute a common man on the street to meet their own ends.
About this blog, I have only 1 thing to say. Stop sensationalizing the real issues which dog our Sub Continent. All that is needed is a very hard work on the part of the Governments to get rid of this great evil of polarization, and illiteracy which sadly seems to be a distant dream due to the lethargy and the red tapism of those calling the shots.
‘Naarebaazi” that India is all evil is nothing more than a negative propaganda in the same way as calling all Pathans; Taliban. We do have a lot of shortcomings but nothing is perfect and things have to be worked out. I bet you Mr Ibrahim Malick would fume if someone wrote on this blog about all the wrongs committed proudly but wrongly in the name of holy, and beautiful religion of Islam.
September 16th, 2009 at 6:36 am
@tusharsingh: @raheem: Muslims are given reservation in colleges still they cant make it then its their fault. In school most muslim students are not sincere on studies they remain busy abt talking irrelevant points. Some talk abt how to fight war. I suggested one to stop these talks and study ur current syllabus to one of my classmates he threatened me and warned me that he will kill me. As far as beard is concerned most muslims live without beard. During admission all rules and regulation of school are provided and a signature by student and guardian is taken that they abide by all school rules failing to which they can be expelled. this is the case with most private schools. As far as govt schools are concerned they dont have such rules and provides free education to all with even having seats reserved for muslims. Some institution have above 50% muslim reservation and non muslim rarely get admission there.
As far as salim is concerned he is also one of the unsincere student of school. he nevers performs well in school and like most muslim students he is busy with irrelevant points. He sud have not taken admission in that school if he was busy abt his beard. School admission brochure had clearly stated its rule before admission. But since most students (even me) do not read rules carefully fell in trap. Christian schools are very hard about rules and i have faced it. but at the end these rules gives u discipline in life. But if u dont like u r not supposed to take admission in a christian school. If Salim was busy with his studies he sudnt have dared to make havoc over beard. His stupidity led him to loose a year. Now colleges are very particular about academic records both Indian and American. competition is very high for undergraduate studies since in most exaM like IIT-JEE which has around 6 thousand seats for which over 9 lakh student sits in exam for such a low number of seats. Besides u have only 2 chances in succesive years only plus u must have secured 60% marks in intermediate. So u need to be very focussed and dont have time to waste. some institutes allow to sit in comptetive exam only if u have 80% marks. Since most muslims are ignorant and indulge themselves in irrelevant things like Salim cant make to good college. So govt has given reservations to muslims along with low caste hindus according to their population. the figure of muslim studs could have been even worse if govt has not given reservations. ITS LACK OF SINCERITY OF MUSLIM PARENTS RATHER THAN MUSLIM STUDENTS which is making them to lag behind. Shahrukh khan, salman khan all are muslims who had their education in convent private schools. they never had beards and they didnt fought over such silly issues. And we all know that shahrukh was very brilliant student of his class performing well in studies as well as sports. I dont want to hurt any muslim but if muslim needs to be with us they have to be like us. long hairs or tilak are also not allowed in school so i dont have. I cant fighht over silly issues. i have my whole life left to perform my religious activity. I can do it after my studies.
I was in a private school(run and managed by muslims with muslim rules dominating) for 6 months in 6th std. some hindus were also in school but i was only one in my class. During roza they didnt allowed me to take lunch as this could make problems for other students who were fasting. since they were still kids watching me having lunch could have bad impact on muslim kids(As the school principle stated). But i didnt went into court. Even i could have won the case easily since school rules brochure on which me n my parents signed at the time of admission didnt mentioned any rules of not having lunch during roza. I had just recovered from jaundice and was very weak it was not possible for me to survive without food whole day in school, so i left the school. i joined another school. my parents knew fighting case in court will take time and i will loose my classes.
September 16th, 2009 at 7:10 am
By the way, why are Pakistanis always so incensed and consummated about discussing India? Why don’t they worry about issues regarding daily life in Pakistan? Isn’t there any injustice and discrimination there? Are you trying to push a message that Pakistan is perfect? Lenin said it right. Religion is the opium of the masses. Believe me this world will be a better place if religions themselves were exterminated. I am not a communist but I love the communist idea of banning all religions. They’ve served nothing more than bring misery to mankind. Mind it.. Religion and God are totally different. While God made us, we made religions. When I say this, I take into account ALL religions.
September 16th, 2009 at 9:47 am
wow…indians talking of peace, thats strange. any one who knows a little bit of history knows of your cunning nature. “baghal mai churri, mun pe ram ram”, this single line tells us of a typical hindu mentality.
the truth is, you dont let us mind our bussiness, india is busy keeping unrest in pakistan since the day it was created. wether its kashmir,bangladesh, balouchistan, taliban movement or terroist activities.
all are backed by india. this is the way of “chankia”.
dont have much time, will complete it later, as for now, dont use word peace, it dosnt suit your blood stained mouth.
and yeah if you dont like the blog dont read it, at the top it says “pakistan for pakistani”
PAKISTAN ZINDABAAD
September 16th, 2009 at 10:34 am
Discrimination is a reality in India. There is discrimination based on not only religion but race, language, caste as well. It would be wrong though to just blame the Hindus or the classes with most number. Hindus and other communities face equal or perhaps even more discrimination in areas where others are in majority. Only if we accept people as they are and not attach too much importance to differences.
Also the article does not say why the literacy rates are low among Muslims. Is it because they are not given admission in schools? Or is there some other reason. After all schools are not opened just for Hindus.
September 16th, 2009 at 10:43 am
All i can say is dat we Indians are better than pakistanis in everything from peace to war.. da day we start fighting, pakistan will disappear from da face of da earth
September 16th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Nikhilesh, you point to the intolerance prevalent among individuals and the quick judgement fast execution type mob mentality. Generally such harshness grows when legitimate recourse is not available. Desensitising children towards others is considered survival technique. I have seen boys mutilating and torturing cat as a sport.
September 16th, 2009 at 11:42 am
well indiya is best who says tht.. jus to utter the words is so easy.. here in pakistan have you ppl ever heard that sikhs are not allowed to offer their prayers or they are not given admission in schools or there is any such foolish strict rules that they cant wear pagri n all tht.. same goes for hindus nthing has happend ever.. have u heard tht hindus were badly beaten or the pregnant hindu women is beaten to death as in ur gujrat happend?? have u ever heard of any such rahul, shankar ,raj or kuldeep who is not given admission to schools jus becuase of the religion.. these are baseless things which indya used to do that..jus saying india is best by these words it wont be like that.. instead of this try to accept the reality.. if muslims are living in india so hindus are also living in pakistan.. its not in our religion to take the revenge other wise the way poor muslims are treated in indya we can do tht as well.. but fight is not the solution we have to take out a middle ground as we are a global village..
September 16th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
This is exactly why Quaid Azam Mohammad Ali Jinah proposed two nation theory. He feared that all Muslims will be made second class citizens. because Hindus hated being ruled by Muslims. This is no surprise. Whne I went to meet family members in Lucknow sometime back I was shocked that all my cousins who stayed in India are doing so poorly. All of us in Pakistan are doctors and engineers and good educated professionsls. Those poor failiy members who stayed in Lucknow are labour class. Why I ask? Same people we are. Same genes and IQ. But why they don’t have education that we have?
Sad part of the story is that Hindus are doing so well in India. Why is that? I agree with the author that Muslims are being discriminated in their own country.
September 16th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Raj K ‘mulims are backwards because they inbreed and have low IQ’.
Oh wow..it just amazes me how people have these downright baseless, weird perceptions about people who follow other religions!
Going by Raj K’s comment i’m assuming all Hindu’s are Rocket Scientists..albeit secretly because nobody-except Raj K of course- is aware of that!!
At the end of the day, no matter what god we follow, each one of us experiences pain, happiness, sadness, absolute delight, heartbreak…so how are we so different from each other??
September 16th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Aarti- do you disagree with scietific fact that inbreeding produces birth defect? birt defects include physical abnormality also mental abnormality. See below: “The negative health effects caused by inbreeding are due to the expression of rare, recessive deleterious genes that are inherited from common ancestors or a single shared ancestor. Studies on population in which inbreeding is common have shown increased levels of mortality and morbidity due to a variety of genetic defects.”(Bittles 1991)
it is not a matter of religion but practices. muslims are dumber and perform bad in schools and jobs because they marry cousins. SIMPLE
September 16th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
‘SIMPLE’ with a smile…ho hum. what can you say to such a man?
Trying to understand a problem is difficult, using scientific fact(s) as the sole tool to justify calling the entire population of a religion ‘dumber’ is easy. I hope people like you don’t teach your children such prejudices.
September 16th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
and oh yes…mental abnormality and low IQ are two different things!
September 16th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
@Aarti – Thanks for bringing this up, such comments are truly abhorrent..
@Raj K – True, for your convenience, I shall agree with your scientific view point, yes, it is true, generations of inbreeding does cause a lot of issues, but we need to consider the following :-
1) All Muslims in India marry “cousins” as you say?
2) Is it not a general trend that minorities world wide tend to marry with in their own caste/religion/race?
3) Would it imply that all minorities world wide have a lower IQ? now that is something.
4) Let us assume, for one instance, that all minorities, specially Muslims in India have low IQ, is that not discrimination and utter disregard of for those “low IQ” people on your part by simply stating it in such a manner?
5) If you are blessed with a high IQ lets assume, what are you doing to correct the situation? your High IQ gives you the right to talk in such disdain about others not so blessed?
6) for those who are interested in the scientific findings on this subject, please visit: http://www.pnas.org/content/75/8/3906.full.pdf?ck=nck
Allah save the Muslims in India if all Indians think like Raj K – “Muslims are inbred, are dumb and have Low IQ”…wow, that would be akin to saying, a group is miserable, has low IQ and is most certainly “dumb” due to it’s members being born poor, which im led to assume Indians think about their poor members of the society as well.
In the end id like to pray for the high IQ Indians like Raj K – may Allah lead them towards the realization of their intellect and allow them to achieve great things due to the great IQ level they have been bestowed with, I hope you have no failures in life Raj K, since you must be above %90 percent of your population in terms of intelligence, congratulations, we expect great things from you, try to live up to them.
September 16th, 2009 at 7:04 pm
Guys ….. the local public wants peace ….. for that we first have to see in which language we are communicating…. Um really sorry to sayy ………….. hey you pakis mind ur own language …. or pakis repling to indians inn such tone would never end in peace….. For God sake….. the game is much bigger than what we all think …. there are big players up there……. named as politicians… let me illustrate … for instace there are two teams and two leaders, one foreach …do u ever think both would want peace between themm…. cuz if that happens , if teams combine…. who ‘d get the leadership ? the leaders , they do not care abt us …. the mass public… all they want is their leading roles and getting money into their pockets…. bomb blasts, killings happen and you never know it might be done planned by the leader for the same team so that he can communicate to the team that the other team did it ….so that they become emotional and will give money to do operation on the other team… In India there are so many movies depicting this… how can we still not get it …. it’s a game played by the bigger hand n making us emotional fools….. when ever there is a lot of attention and criticism on a country’s inner issue… what happens…. suddenly there is tension on the boder .. by this … ppl attention distract to the pak india border conflict …. this is all on purpose…….. its time we understand…. its time we start respecting each other … cuz u can only win hearts by givig respect and love not hatred….
September 16th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
thats a very interesting article.
September 16th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
Aarti,
Mammals, most other animals, and higher plants as well, have evolved mechanisms to avoid inbreeding of any sort. Some, like sweet cherries, have even evolved elaborate biochemical mechanism to ensure that their flowers can not be fertilized by themselves or by very genetically similar individuals.
Most pack animals (like lions, primates, and dogs),kick young males out of the pack so as to prevent them from mating with female relatives. Humans (with the exception of MUSLIMS) have very strong taboos against mating with relatives. Even fruit-flies apparently have a sensing mechanism to avoid too close of inbreeding, even in a closed population they maintain more genetic diversity than they ought to by random mating.
Why do living things avoid inbreeding? Because in general, it is quite bad for a population or an organism to be very inbred. There is a well studied, although only partially understood phenomenon called inbreeding depression.
Science is not prejudice and YES I TEACH MY CHILDREN TO STAY AWAY FROM UGLY DUCKLING MUSLIMS.
September 16th, 2009 at 8:25 pm
Kamal- you are doctor and cousin in India is a peon. Let me tell you why? It is because our educational standards are very high. Every Indian peon can be Pakistani doctor, engineer, scientists.
Pakis are inferior – simple
September 16th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
The systematic and daily anti-Muslim riots resulting in loss of life and property, and above all the sense of fear in the hearts of every Muslim, elimination of Muslims from the Defence, paramilitary and police forces and brahminising of these forces, closing the doors of appointments in Govt. services and public undertakings, Brahminisation of education and mass.media like radio, TV and advertisement, elimination of Urdu as official language from those areas which form the presentday States of Punjab, Haryana, UP, Bihar, parts of Madhya Pradesh, Maharastra, Andhra Pradhesh and Karnataka overnight in 1947-48, gradual closing of Urdu schools are all examples of anti-Muslim policies.
On the brahminical psychological warfare side comes the cries of Personal Law amendment, now diluted as common civil code, greatness of the Indian (Hindu) culture, projection of notorious anti-Muslim personalities like “Mahatma” Gandhi, B. G. Tilak, Madan Mohan Malaviya, Veer Savarkar, Lala Laipat Rai as heroes of India to belittle the contribution of Muslims for the development and progress of the country, re-writing of Indian history, describing Muslim professions like beef-selling as a sin and glorifying cow protection policies, introduction of mechanical slaughter of animals to throw out of job butchers, declaration of import and export business carried on by Muslims as smuggling are policies through which vulnerable Indian masses are misguided, resulting in a psychological anti-Muslim bias. Muslim electoral constituencies are divided horizontally and vertically so that they don’t have an effective voting power anywhere and thrusting upon them ultra-secular Muslim leaders who have started worshipping Hindu idols and such scenes being systematically televised. Unfortunately Muslim leaders, who are dejected with the Govt., repose much confidence in Hindu masses and hope to secure their help ignoring the fact that the poor Hindu (Dalit) masses are as much victims of such a propaganda. And as on this day only seeds are being sown. The harvest is yet to come. When the harvest reason comes, what will be harvested in India is repetition of Spain, unless the Muslims resort to counter measures soon.
It is high time the Muslim/ intelligentsia rises to the occasion to undo the repetition of the history of Spain in India. Islam has always been protected by the Muslim masses and not by the classes. Rich Muslims, who are not even 5% of the Muslim population (with minor exceptions) are joining the upper caste exploiters. They may talk of Islam but they have forgotten the fellow Muslims.
Please note: religion does not protect its followers, but followers protect the religion. Remember if Islam has to be saved in India, Muslims have to be saved.
September 16th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
Rightly said Aqu! This is not only the case in India but on the global level. Reasons for wars are deliberately crated for the sake of benefit of some groups or countries. I pray that we all understand that we are merely toys in the hands of these ruling elites.
9/11 was CREATED so they can take down south west Asia and Iraq and not only that… but can be used as a token to invade any other country, specially a Muslim country, in the future. Even the bloke who wrote this article is the tool these groups are using to channel the views of the masses in a certain direction!
Please watch documentaries like ‘LOOSE CHANGE’ and ‘END GAME’ to understand this better. Links are given below:
http://www.mininova.org/tor/988400
http://www.mininova.org/tor/2807922
September 16th, 2009 at 10:02 pm
The idiot who is talking about inbreeding among Muslims and the effect it has on them just forgot that it’s the Hindu Culture which divides humans into these casts and creed and condemning some to ‘untouchables’.
“According to the ancient Hindu scriptures, there are four “varnas.” The Bhagavad Gita says varnas are decided based on Guna and Karma. Manusmriti and some other shastras mention four varnas: the Brahmins (teachers, scholars and priests), the Kshatriyas (kings and warriors), the Vaishyas (agriculturists and traders), and Shudras (service providers and artisans). This theoretical system postulated Varna categories as ideals and explained away the reality of thousands of endogamous Jātis actually prevailing in the country as being the historical products of intermarriage among the “pure” Varnas – Varna Sankara. All those, including foreigners, tribals and nomads, who did not subscribe to the norms of the Hindu society were described as Mlechhas and treated as contagious and untouchables. Another group excluded from the main society was called Parjanya or Antyaja. This group of former “untouchables” (self described as Dalits) ie downtrodden, was considered either the lower section of Shudras or outside the caste system altogether.”
What a pity for those who are born Shudras or Mlechhas as they forced to inbreed because no one else in the society would marry them.
I know that all Indians are not scumbags like you Raj. Many of educated Indians don’t even believe in this system anymore.
The only one with a big mental deformity here is you!!!
Let us all pray for Raj for a good mental institution so he can be relieved of his misery.
Peace!
September 17th, 2009 at 2:40 am
I AM A INDIAN MUSLIM
I dont know how you concluded that Indian Muslims are not happy or they dont have reach to certain institution because this is NOT TRUE.
I did my studies from Delhi university and also did higher studies from ICFAI. i have never seen such discrimination in India, it is a peaceful and beautiful country and people specially new generation is not focusing on religion but they are focusing on growth of all.
Recently i met one of my relative, who came from Pakistan to attend some family function here in india (as i do have relatives there in Pakistan, who shifted to Pakistan during 1947) i was surprised on the question which he asked to, here is what he asked to me..
Do Indian treat muslim well?
Here is what my answer was
What do you means by Indians? Muslim are also indian and Indian Muslim are more happy than Pakistaani Muslim. Atleast here we dont plant bomb on Mosques and Temples, atleast here we dont have emergency laws frequently like pakistan.. atleast here we have better laws, better infra, better support, better government, better eduction, better opportunities.
I dont know what makes Pakistani Muslim thinks that Indian Hindus are enemies of Indian Muslims.. NO THIS IS NOT THE REALLY MY FRIENDS… this might be the case during partition or may be few years after that.. but that was from both sides Muslims and Hindus were fighting over everything.. But now time have changed its not 1947 now.. its 2009 and now nobody cares others religion..For your surprise i have mostly Hindu and Sikh friends and only few are Muslim.. i do celebrate with them and no discrimination..
ABOVE IS 99.9% CASES TRUE.
I agree that in 0.01% cases there is discrimination, buts thats everywhere in the world, in America they are fighting on Black and White.. on the other hand british says they are superior than other nationals,, recently we heard a lot about riots in China too… so this is common and we will never be able to remove that 0.01% as it is in human nature.
You can in India, there are 0.01% institute which discrimate on the basis of religion, but that does not mean they are run by Hindus only,, there are many such Muslim and Sikh institute too.. like Guru Govind singh indra prastha university prefer only Sikh Candidates, and even do now started reservation for them.. and even they discriminate others by calling themself minority institution… . same is true for Jamia Milla Islamia – which is a muslim organisation and give prefrence to muslim student… Hindus run Banaras Hindu University which is mainly for Hindus specially in courses like MBBS and many professional courses..
But these kind of 0.01% discrimation is everywhere with every relegion,,
GUYS PLEASE TRY TO BE GOOD HUMAN BEFORE BEING GOOD MUSLIM OR GOOD HINDU..
You cant be a good Muslim without being a good human.
You cant be a good Hindu without being a good human.
September 17th, 2009 at 3:10 am
@muneen:
Well form what you say let assume one could make sense that in a population of 1 billion Muslims were roughly 17% in 2001 to about 22% in end of 2008 Muslims have been doing well in India , Muslims are suffering that because thanks to their mullah they don’t exercise birth control as the saying goes you cant have them if you can afford them , this is suicide for poor Muslims resulting in more mouth to feed , poverty and automatically leading to a life of crime . Look the more affluent educated Muslims who adhere to the one child norm they are quite happy with the scheme of thing and last but not the least all those Pakistani who are quick to call Indians all blood thirsty Hindu , Please introspect whether a minority Hindu in Pakistan can get a reprieve like slime did and i would ask Ibrahim sajid malick to reflect on how Pakistan is treat its minorities before he cry fouls about Muslims else where!
September 17th, 2009 at 3:16 am
one of the best president india had was dr. APJ Kalaam, and he is a muslim and definately has IQ which u definately cannot comprehend with your IQ and thinking. IQ is individual thing and not community thing. Stop hating start respecting each other.@Raj K:
September 17th, 2009 at 3:21 am
I do not know what is our country (India, I presume) has come to. around 7 decades ago a genius named Jinnah who turned into a jackass (all genius have tremendous capability to turn into jackass) and scared the shit out of Pt Nehru and Patel and dwarfed leaders like Maulana, et al and disappointed Gandhi ji to an extent that the biggest folly of partition occurred. Now idiotic dumbhead dodos like ASIF (perhaps a Paki), and the biggest IDIOT DUMB FOOL JACKASS FOLLOWER MUNEEN, WHO QUOTES A PERSON LIKE GANDHI JI AS ANTI MUSLIM, A LEADER WHO FOUGHT FOR THE CALIPHATE WHEN MUNEEN’S FATHER JINNAH WAS OPPOSING IT,
AND ALL OTHER DUMB HEAD INDIANS WHO ASK PAKIS TO MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS ARE ALSO EQUALLY IDIOTIC AND JACKASS FOLLOWERS.
LISTEN DOLTS, WE ARE ONE SOUL, ONE PEOPLE, ONE RACE AND WILL ONE DAY COME TOGETHER AGAIN. MAYBE NOT IN MY LIFETIME BECAUSE OF IDIOTS LIKE MOST OF YOU. BUT ONE DAY WE WILL, OUR FOLK SONG, CULTURAL ETHOS AND EVERYTHING ELSE IS THE SAME.
GO TO A BORDER VILLAGE AND SEE THAT IT IS THE FUCKING BORDER WHICH CREATES ALL THE PROBLEMS. BUGGERS LIKE MUSHARRAF AND 20 PERCENT ZARDARI AND ADVANI AND MANMOHAN THE SLAVE DO NOT GO TO THE BORDER TO FACE PROBLEMS, IT IS THE COMMON MAN, THE COMMON SOLDIER WHO DOES NOT EVEN KNOW WHY THE FUCK HE IS SCREWING HIS LIFE THERE.
I TELL YOU THE DAY PAK AND INDIAN ARMY GO BACK TO THEIR BARRACKS AND LEAVE THE RESPECTIVE SO CALLED NATION STATES TO THE PEOPLE, THE BORDERS WILL VANISH. SEE THE RESPECT AND LOVE FOR AMITABH, OR SHAHRUKH OR RAJ KAPOOR IN PAKISTAN AND THE SIMILAR LOVE FOR THEIR GREATS SUCH AS USTAAD NUSRAT FATEH ALI KHAN SAHEB IN INDIA.
THOSE FOOLS WHO CALL MUSLIMS AS BAD AND THEN CALL THEMSELVES AS INDIAN SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT TATYA TOPE, LAKSHMIBAI AND ALL OTHERS HAD FOUGHT THEIR HEARTS OUT FOR BAHADUR SHAH ZAFAR AND THAT RAMCHARITMANAS WAS FUNDED BY NO OTHER THAN AKBAR THE GREAT, HE SENT FUNDS TO THE NAWAB OF AUDH UNDER WHOSE TERROTORIAL REIGN THE KASHI NAGARI WAS THERE. AKBAR HAD CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS TO ALL TO NOT TO INVADE KASHI AND DISTURB THE HARMONY AND WHEN HE WAS INFORMED THAT A MAN NAMED TUSLIDAS (RECLUSE AND LOSER THAT HE WAS BEFORE HE BECAME FAMOUS WITH HIS IMMOIRTAL CREATION WHICH STIRS THE SOUL OF MANY) IS PENNING RAMCHARITMANAS, AKBAR VISITED HIM AS A COMMON MAN AND THEN SENT GIFTS AND GRANTS TO KASHI MAHARAJ, WHICH WERE THEN SENT TO THE ASHRAM NEAR PRESENT SANKAT MOCHAN TEMPLE IN BANARAS.
PLEASE ALL OF U UNDERSTAND THAT NOT LONG, THE GRANDFATHER OF MOST OF THE DUDS ON THIS CHAT WERE READING URDU AND DEFINETLY ALL THE GREAT GRANDFATHERS HAD URDU AS THE LANGUAGE OF ELITE AND EDUCATED AFTER ENGLISH, AND IT WAS NOT HINDI. GANDHI JI CALLED FOR HINDI AS THE NATIONAL LANGUAGE AS VERY FEW PEOPLE WERE EDUCATED THEN, SO DEAR WHETHER U ARE FROM PAKISTAN OR FROM INDIA, UNDERSTAND THAT THIS SOIL, WATER, AND AIR WILL NOT LET US BE DIFFERENT.
EVER SEEN HOW COMMON AND UNIFORM IS THE (MISPLACED) ANGER AND COMMENTS ALSO. WE ARE SAME IN EVERYTHING.
September 17th, 2009 at 3:50 am
I am a muslim from India. I have been treated well.
I did my schooling from a catholic school which has 15% muslims, 35% hindus and 50% Catholics. I was never under discrimination.
Then I did my college from a Hindu college. I was the only Muslim there in my class. No discrimination at all.
Then I did my post graduation from a college in Pune. I was selected on merit list, No discrimination at all.
In my life, I have never faced any discrimination at any point. Everyone is not so lucky as myself. But overall, I would say I am much happy being an Indian Muslim than being a Pakistani muslim. Why?
Because of the simple fact that freedom doesn’t mean you can do what you want. but it rather means you having the ability to say NO to things which you DONT want to do.
Now answer a very simple question. If I were a girl in a Pakistani school and I would want to wear a very western outfit, would that be ever allowed??
Every country / institution has its own good and bad and preferences will be given to people of the same community. This happens even in professional life!
Atleast there are a very very few cases in India of such discrimination, but in Pakistani this discrimination has become a LAW! How many of the hindu’s in pakistan will get permission to build a temple? NONE!
First solve internal matters between shia and sunnis and then talk about discrimination! Shia will say sunnis are discriminating and so will the sunnis… Where would you bring uniformity here?
September 17th, 2009 at 4:11 am
c guys this use useless to utter words to convey the truth coz these paki’s will neva wanna hear the truth as simple as that dude fuh ol u paki’s come to india and c urself eithr take a visa or cross the bordr thru kashmir or bangla desh who cares lol…….
ol my indian brothers why r v wasting our energy jus stop it maaaaaaan we ol know who r u we will be a strong power in next few yrs…….so guyssss relax let the dog bark lol………
September 17th, 2009 at 4:14 am
Mohammad Naved – you are wrong. I am a Muslim living in Faridabad.We are middle class and we are doing well. I keep my eyes open- I see discrimination everywhere. We are the untouchables. The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent.
September 17th, 2009 at 4:20 am
Dear Mural Ali
I dont know in which world you live, but atleast i am getting the idea why my Pakistani relative ask me the question “Do Indian treat Muslim well?” he asked me this question because few of Indian Muslim (like you) and few of Pakistani Muslim (like the own of this blog) pretends that Muslim in India are not Happy and being discriminated Heavily…
I have seen that area Faridabad and found no discrimination there.. I spent my childhood in Delhi and found nothing like that…
I think you are from that 0.01% population who creates difference based on religion. Never mind.
September 17th, 2009 at 4:30 am
My dear pakistani brothers, the editor has given only a part of true picture.
1) he talks about sachar comitee, but doesnt say why the report was taken in the first place. the report was made to know why muslims are backward and how can they be uplifted.
2) he talks about “Salim” case n says there are thousands of salims in India. Does the author mention any of the cases where justice is not being delivered.
India may or may not be A Model of Religious Pluralism but muslims(and other religious groups) in India enjoy better benifits n freedom over some developed nations.
One point to the Author:
Please have some ethics. know the implications of writin a half baked story.WHEN YOU HAVE MENTIONED ABOUT THE PLIGHT OF INDIAN MUSLIMS, WHY HAVENT YOU NOT MENTIONED THE STEPS TAKEN BY THE GOVERNMENT FOR THEIR UPLIFTMENT?????
September 17th, 2009 at 6:39 am
One doesn’t have to think twice after reading this article that some people (i am sure not all) in pakistan are stuck with india syndrome. they have nothing else to do but just checking what’s happening in india. it would be better if they devoted some time for their own country and make it a better place to live. even if they want to check what’s happening in india, then will it not be good that they checked what positive is happening in india and replicate that in their country. as regards to the beard episode with this boy in india, our courts corrected the wrong doing of some idiots here. but what u guys are doing to correct the wrong doings on hindus, who are being asked to pay some tax by goons to live in pakistan only because they are not muslims.
please don’t worry about indian muslims – they are our brothers. we here in india call even pakistan traders, artists etc. irrespective of their relegion and allow them earn from their brother country india and earn money for their families and our brother country pakistan. whereas you compare humans with animals. i am not angry at you but pity you for your thoughts. who would have taught u this. i am sure no parents or relegion teachs hatred. as my indian muslim brothers tell me the Quran great scared book teaches only to love and respect every human irrespective of their faith / relegion.
i have so many friends who are muslims here in india. even my mother, who was a strong brahmin, used to eat in one plate with my friends ammi. in case of an emergency, she would call my friend first and then us. we india have this kind of relation with our muslim brothers. do you have this kind of relationship with people from other relegions – just think.
so please grow up for your future generations sake to let them live in peace with the world and forgo the hatred people like you are spreading. being educated does not mean collecting degrees or making blogs but learning good things from anyone and everyone irrespective of their faith. educated must teach the best of whole world (education, love and peace) to their kids not worst (hatred) of whole world to their kids
i just hope my comments help in bringing some sense to some people and bring growth and joy to their future generations
September 17th, 2009 at 6:47 am
Mohammad Naved,
Yes, I know I live in privileged part of India. But it does not mean I keep my eyes and ears close. Please review history of this great nation, I call my home. India is my homeland. I am a Muslim. But I have the right to criticize when it is due. Hindu versus Muslims distruct is still there due to memory of partition but also because of other factors communal violence has assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or genocide.
Listen closely and you hear that Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu religion than of patriotism or nation. For them Indian nationalism has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the Rashtra (nation). Remember RSS propaganda “All Muslims are not terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims”?
When Muslims are being so brutally targeted the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers just look on.
Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised.
I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and Hitler.
Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It appears though the Government at the Centre is secular but agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police is taking orders from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress.
September 17th, 2009 at 6:53 am
Hello Jai Bharat- if your country is so fair why does this happen?
Indian Muslims facing discrimination in housing: Washington Post
WASHINGTON – India’s Muslims face new discrimination following last November’s attacks in Mumbai and now even Bollywood’s Muslim celebrities are being denied housing in Hindu residential complexes, a leading US
newspaper reported Sunday.
The Washington Post correspondent in Mumbai interviewed with some well-placed Muslims who were barred from renting a place to live. One such case was that of Palvisha Aslam, a 22-year-old Bollywood producer, who
was rejected by an estate broker when he noticed her last name as she was about to sign the lease.
“It was just six weeks after the November Mumbai terrorist attacks and Indian Muslims were being viewed with suspicion across the country,” correspondent Emily Wax wrote. “He (the broker) then showed her a grimy
one-room tenement in a Muslim-dominated ghetto. She felt sick to her stomach as she watched the residents fight over water at a leaky tap in a dark alley,” the dispatch said.
“That night I cried a lot. I was still an outcast in my own country – even as a secular Muslim with a well-paid job in Bollywood,” Ms Aslam, who had similar experiences with five other brokers and three months later is still sleeping on friends’ sofas, was quoted as saying. “I’m an Indian. I love my country. Is it a crime now to be a
Muslim in Mumbai?”
“(S)tories like (Ms) Aslam’s are common, even among some of the country’s most beloved Bollywood actors, screenwriters and producers in India’s most cosmopolitan city,” the Post dispatch said. “The accusations of discrimination highlight the often simmering religious tensions in the world’s biggest democracy, where Muslim celebrities can be feted on the red carpet one minute and locked out of quality housing the next,” it said.
“The phenomenon has become known here as ‘renting while Muslim.’ It raises questions that go to the heart of India’s identity as a secular democracy that is home to nearly every major religion on the planet. Although India
has a Hindu majority, it also has 150 million Muslims, one of the largest Muslim communities in the world”.
“The new generation wants a better India that isn’t bogged down in religious strife,” said Junaid Memon, 34, a Muslim Bollywood director who is trying to promote religious harmony through his films and his Facebook site.
September 17th, 2009 at 7:10 am
Well i agree. Personal freedom should be there over code of conduct. If kuraan says do not shave or muslim people make it religious to have beard then let it be. I feel being in a ‘majority’ we should give them extra space. We have been living with them but doing discrimination and this discrimination is the reason they feel oust and detached from us. We have to take first step and please do not compare this situation with majority/minority situations in our neighbor or any other countries.
But muslim brothers please do think seriously and have a second thought before you take drastic step of any injustice towards you. Do not find solace in solitude if you find yourself discriminated, come out and raise your voice like the way that school guy did. This is as much as ur country as it is to other communities. Because of some hypocrite, big mouth, snob leader/politician/individual do not feel bad and alone. It would affect your present and future and so does if affect the present and future of our country.
September 17th, 2009 at 7:53 am
Anand- you are calling on Muslim brothers- but I am a Muslim woman and I agree wholeheartedly with you. Hindu and Muslims need to start fresh- forget about past atrocities. Start new. I am ready.
September 17th, 2009 at 11:37 am
Problem is dat pakistanis interfere too much in India. Perhaps dey forgot wat our Maulvi had told musharraf in India.. Or maybe dey just dont have any self respect.
September 17th, 2009 at 11:45 am
@naseema khatoon: I AM PAINED AT WHATS HAPPENING.THESE IDIOTS HAVE SCREWED MY SENSE OF GROWING UP.WE SHOULD BRAND ALL HUMAN BEINGS AS HINDU ,MUSLIMS,CHRISTIAN,SIKHS ,JEWS,BUDDHISTS ,JAINS,BLACKS,WHITES,SHIAS SUNNIS,CATHOLICS,PROTESTANTS,BRAHMINS,RIYAS,SHUDRAS,SUFIS,BROWNS,YELLOWS,DIGAMBARS, SWETAMBARS,JAINSAND BEHENCHODS.BECAUSE THATS WHAT WE ARE.WE ARE SIS FUCKERS WITH A GARB.SALO JIYO AUR SANS LENE DO.MARNAHI HAI TO CHULLU BHAR PANI ME DUB KE MARO.
September 17th, 2009 at 11:47 am
<@Raj K:
Funny, considering your mother would be fantasizing every night about being gangbanged by the ‘Khans’ of Bollywood
September 17th, 2009 at 11:48 am
I’m an Indian hindu woman.. and I am absolutely apalled at what ‘Raj K’ has said here. I want to stress that not all Indians think like him.. in fact I’m sure most of us dont.. thank god! I wont even bother to argue with his absurd statements.
This article is interesting and gives a certain view point.. but I do not think it is entirely fair. Yes minorities in all communities face certain problems.. but it is not quite the way the author presents it. Not all of India and Indian system is biased against minorities.. in fact most of it isnt.
True there might be one case like Salim.. and if you dig deep enough you’ll find such cases have happened with people of other casts and religions too at different places and times.. for example the MNS crusade against north indians etc.. these are one-off incidences and cannot be considered the norm!
Such propaganda only further spreads bitterness in society and does no good. I would suggest the author to look beyond his perceptions and see the brotherhood that hindus and muslims share in many parts of the country. I also agree with what naseem khatoon has said before me.
September 17th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
I completely agree wid u my sister sangya……..I m an indian muslim girl………..doing well in india……….n no doubt i love my country very much…….i dont knw y mr.Raj has got so much hatred against muslims……..but let me tell u……..i have rather always been respected being a muslim…..among the friends…….educational institutions…….etc…..n hav never faced such discrimination…Being a minority u do face alittle problems……but after all m doing much better than a lot of the students 4m other community……plz stop spreading such hateful comments….
N TRUST ME INDIA IS A GUD PLACE TO LIVE IN…….I LOVE MY COUNTRY INDIA…….
September 17th, 2009 at 9:10 pm
A few points:
1)We Indian Muslims don’t need magnificent lectures about secularism from Pakistan, the hotbed of religious extremism and a country which treats its minorities, Christians and Hindus, as second-class citizens. First set your own house in order before pointing accusing fingers at India. Sure, minorities here India have faced persecution from Hindutva extremists here. But we Muslims don’t need terrorists in Pakistan to speak for us or to plant bombs in crowded places in the name of avenging for such atrocities. I wish to tell these Pak terrorists that your ‘rescue’ missions only help further alienate Indian Muslims and add to their cup of woes. There would have some propriety in talking about Indian Muslims if you Pakistan people treat your minorities well.
2)The case of this student insisting on having a beard is a classical example of Islam being misinterpreted and how a great religion is relegated to trivia. According to reports, he has argued before the court that having a beard is a cardinal principal of Islam! Having a beard is not a must. I am now reminded of an incident involving Ziavudeen Sardar, a progressive voice of Islam. When he visited a Pakistan relgious meeting, he was asked why if he was a Muslim why he didn’t have a beard. He replied: “Why don’t you travel on camel back.” Then he said: “There’s no need to travel on camels now because we have modern means of travel like cars.”
Then Sardar said: “Prophet Mohammed spent most of the time in life on camel. This is baecause there were no other means of transport. He grew beard at that time because there was no blade at that time! Just as you don’t travel on camel back, you don’t need to grow beard now because Prophet used to have:.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:38 pm
Raj needs to be admitted to some mental asylum and needs some high voltage shock treatment. It’s urgent. In fact, this scumbug idiot doesn’t need a reply because he is so blinded by hatred towards Muslims. If Muslims marry from their own relatives, so do Hindus and Christians. Muslims do marry so in as much as people from other religions do.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:59 pm
Firos/Firoz….well said!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey guys…lets do something bout this thing..like ‘really’ doing something not only talking..wat do u suggest??? any ideas!!!the basic thing is to eradicate the animosity which can be only done when people speak out…let them speak and we try to convience him/her with our point of ‘everybody same’. We can start from here like we have one guy with us called ‘Raj’. Am sure he is having some problems with muslims..so lets find out what and why he is having problem. What do u say guys??!!!!!!!!
September 17th, 2009 at 10:03 pm
Guys!!!!!! why the heck we are discussing this topic on pakistaani site..lets discuss it on some indian site. Someone please take initiative and create thread for it.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
how disgusting that person Raj k is…u bucket of dirt dont u realize that whom u saying a backward nation that nation, the muslims have created the great heritage and monuments for u ruddy hindus to build a tourism on..what u people have introduced to world?? the horrible casting system??the hatred??occupying muslim majority areas forcibly???? the nude women?? and ya the most highlighting “THE DANCE” : ))) just take a look at urself..u people! disgusting
NO,India is not a model..not at all
September 17th, 2009 at 10:32 pm
Please donot reply to provocative/stupid comment like the one above. People show some maturity!!!
September 17th, 2009 at 10:37 pm
Indian Muslims had left a mark in all sphere of activity post-1947, be it
Movies:
Actors: Shahrukh, Amir, Salman Khan, Emran Hashmi, Irfan Khan, Abbas(tamil)
Lyricists: Majrooh, Shakeel Badayuni, Hasrat Jaipuri
Actress: Nargis, Jeenat, Parveen, Shabana,Katrina Kaif, Saira Bano, Mumtaz
Script Writers: Javed Akhtar, Salim,Imtiyaz Ali
Directors: Mansoor Khan, Taheer Hussain, Aneez Bazmee, Shaad Ali, kamal Amrohi
Singers:Mohd Rafi, Suraiya, Mohd Azeez, Shamshad Begum, Lucky Ali
Music Directors: Naushad, AR Rehman
Sports:
Cricket: Azaruddin, Nawab Pataudi, Irfan Pathan & host of others
Science: Kalam (the biggest Rocket Scientist)
Business Houses: Azim Premji (WIPRO)
Other Artistes :
M F Hussain (painter); Irfan Habib (historian); Ameen Sayani (Radio Commentator); Zakir Hussain (tabla maestro); Aman & Ayan Ali Bangash (Sarod Maestro); Salman Rushdie (author); Salim Ali (Ornithologist- the bird man of India); MJ Akbar (journalist)
Politicians : Salaman Khurshid,Najma Heptullah, Ghulam Nabi Azad,Hamid Ansari, Zakir Hussain (president)
I would request the paki-junta to give corresponding names of Hindus who excelled in modern-pakistan society?
Isn’t it enogh evidence of what kind of opportunities Muslim- Indians posses & how Hindu-Pakistanis could never come at par due to intense discrimination??
Pakistan-Iran-Afghan-Iraq were once fledgling modernists with enormous freedom to women & high literacy rates.. but the US interference- Mullah’s retaliation to American puppet govt & conservative clergy had wrecked havoc on these parts of the world.. Otherwise there is no reason why moderate Islam can’t be practiced in Af-Pak-Iran-Iraq.. smthing on d lines of Turkey & Indonesia
September 17th, 2009 at 11:01 pm
Gnerally people in India and Pakistan have no problem each other. Being an Indian, nothing prevents me from enjoying Tina Sani’s wonderful songs (and many other incredibly talented singers). It is the fanatics in both sides – Hindutva extremists in India and Islamic extremists in Pakistan – who whip up hatred and exploit for their ulterior motives. Extremists in Pakistan create an anti-India and anti-Hindu feeling. And in India the likes of RSS survive by otherising Indian Muslims and whipping up anti-Pakistan hyteria. People in both the countries should’nt fall prey to the shenanigan ways of these fanatics in both sides. As mentioned by one reader here, people in both the countries should develop people-to-people contact and prevail upon their governments to stop the animosity.
September 18th, 2009 at 1:33 am
First I thought I should not respond to the mixed responses on my comments. Then I thought why not to put few more comments of rational Indian or for that matter a rational citizen of earth. To me crying over some persons action like not giving their flat to a person of different religion in Mumbai or some other state / country is absurd. I may or may not be there in my house but my friends / brothers who are Muslims, Sikhs come to my house stay there, eat there. It’s my choice – how can somebody tell me who can live in my home or who can not live there. It is matter of confidence. Please try and understand so many terrorist attacks are happening here hence people are scared to keep unknown person as tenants. So to me in this situation the best way to look for a residence is through known people than the brokers.
As regards to Indian Muslims versus Pakistan Hindus / Sikhs. Kindly ask anybody in the world who is better placed. In our country everyone is allowed to study and work irrespective of their religion. Kindly name a few of minorities living in your country who have risen to a fraction of these minorities here in India.
We are proud to have Dr.Abdul Kalam (son of a fisherman), Shah Rukh Khan (from middle class family), Salman Khan, Saif Ali Khan, Nusli Wadia etc. etc. The list is endless. Are you aware that Mr.Nusli Wadia owner of Bombay Dyeing is grand son of Mr.Jinnah. We love him as well. And he loves this country more than anyone else. Talk of minorities – our prime minister Mr.Manmohan Singh – we are proud of him. Others like Montek Singh Ahluvalia, Dr.Sam Pitroda – we say with pride they are sons of India.
Do you want more proof for being fair to minorities? We give subsidy for Haj. You charge tax for being a Hindu / sikh. And you want us to be fair to minorities – isn’t it funny. I can go on – but will it help. No – until you guys come out of negative mindset and work for educating kids in your country. Teach kids to love anyone and everyone instead of hatred.
You talk atrocities on minority here. Yes we are ashamed at Godhra, Babri Masjid. That’s why these cases are being tried in our courts, which are doing a fantastic job. They don’t care who the accused is. Are you aware that the head of these courts i.e. Chief Justice of India is again from minority. We are proud of him as well.
People who are breeding terrorism are given free ticket to travel by some countries. Is it fair for them to allow their country to be used as a base for such activities? See it’s a proven fact that no terrorist is friend of anyone. They are just gundas who have aquired the name of jihadis just to cover for their sins. If you try and stop any of their action that does not suit you, they will fight against you as well. See what’s happening in Swat valley. We have learnt our lessen from the case of Bhinderwale. Have you ?
We would love your countrymen to prosper and in fact would like to help in anyway we can as our prime minister has said on numerous occasions. Kindly educate kids instead of giving guns in their hands. Guns only kill and damage. Educated will bring prosperity, respect and peace to your loved country. I know there are tonnes of talented people there waiting for reasonable chance to succeed. Please allow such people to work for their beloved country in a positive way.
September 18th, 2009 at 1:48 am
Yes I agree…..I believe that education is the actual key to stop it. Kids should be given education on something which helps them to evolve mentally positively. There should be some teaching about the religion but only to extend when that teaching is not talking bout revenge/ vengeance /destruction. I am sure people like Kasaab were not given proper education which leads him to endless way of illusion. Rest must have done by the people we called ‘jihadist’ like making him whatever he is now. People who are not educated are mostly aimless and can easily be manipulated while having education makes u opinionated and world wise. You would think of productive things beyond jihad/killing. Education imparts you the way you survive not the way to destruction.
September 18th, 2009 at 1:49 am
I would like to add that the world needs millions of more people like Naseema Khatoon, Sangya, Firos, Ummara and Anands and Jazzs. And Dear Hania Ahmed Khan & Pakistan Jindabad – no one says Pakistan is backward. What we mean is that they can further move ahead and reach top of the world. Who would not love his brother to rise !
September 18th, 2009 at 1:55 am
Can india and pakistan can leave in peace??. together we can change this region and rest of the world. further it is not in any ones control to get birth in hindu or muslim family. if some on borne in hindu family it is not his fault or same for muslim.
September 18th, 2009 at 2:06 am
Its not impossible but its next to it. People are making hell lot of money of this war and these are the people which are ruling our countries or other coutries. We have given them power, the power so addictive that they are doing what power is making them to do. I do not know how it can be done. But the first step would definately be to clean our own mind individually. Evolution is never sudden. So I believe it would take years. I may sound like ‘kaafir’ but some day there would not be any boundaries, any nations, any religion and if you think peace would prevail that time, then my dear friend we may be fighting with aliens that time on the same issue of land.
September 18th, 2009 at 2:30 am
lol!!!i agree with Anand. We human are destined to fight eternally
September 18th, 2009 at 3:55 am
I am a Pakistani and I am so happy that many Indians are giving positive response. I don’t know how muslims are doing in India. I know Muslims, Hindus and Christians are not doing well in Pakistan.
Let me tell you two people Pakistan has always been proud of- our first Foreign Minister Zafraullah and Nobel prize winner Dr. Salam were both qadianis. We treat qadianis like dirt.
our generals are corrupt- ISI is gonda organization. even if you get masters degree there is no job. pakistan must learn to treat it’s majority fairly. Mr. Malick- i like your writings. Even in this artilce you are fair and balance.
all the Indian brothers and sisters- Pakistani people have no fight with you. we want to live peacefuly and benefit from your economic boom. but problem is if i want to come to india to work in Bangalore, i don’t get visa. this should be addressed first. so pakistanis can go to india and learn and work.
September 18th, 2009 at 5:27 am
Look who is speaking about upkeeping of minority rights…. QA dog has no right to complain about a Lion…. First clean ur shit and mess before u poke ur nose into others issues…. Clean up your nation of rogue islamic extremists and wahabis and then speak about other nations…..
September 18th, 2009 at 6:45 am
Shravan, please read some other articles on this blog. ibrahim malick has been criticizing wahabis and extremists and isi.
September 18th, 2009 at 9:51 am
Wonderfully written. you have stated the obvious and are not too biased I’m an Indian and i ave personally seen the way Indian Muslims are treated in schools in the north. Thankfully the situation is better in the south, in states like Kerala where the no. of Muslims are higher.
Of course, India is not a nice place for religious minorities, but Pakistan is not better either. Both countries still have a long way to go.
But compared to western countries, India and Pakistan are much better in the way we treat religious minorities. In the US being a muslim equals a terrorist! Thankfully we are not so bad.
September 18th, 2009 at 10:00 am
@atti butt: well attii batt just wanted to say u …PEACE this word doesn’t suit to Pakistan becoz he always try to spread violence in INDIA and pakistan is said yo be the BIRTH PLACE OF TERRORISM so u better do ur job and stop blammming INDIA and yes one more thing to say about that Indian muslims are in better condition than the hindus in pakistan becoz they r in minorities there and Indian muslims are proud of INDIA becoz they are INDIANS ..CHAK DE INDIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
September 18th, 2009 at 10:06 am
I agree 100% with Raj K. He is telling the truth. My driver is a musla and he married his first cousin. his children are so dumb.
muslims in india are doing poorly because of culture, no desire to grow and because they do not have intelligence. some are exceptions but most of dumb. you cannot take one or two examples and show it for the whole population. muslims are here to clean toilet make sure they do good job.
September 18th, 2009 at 10:45 am
hi frns one thing wich i want 2 share wit u pepl…
Acccording to geographical definition…..da peple who r leaving within d territories of india r boundaries of India r known as HINDUS…..
See dis is not created by mee go n refer swami vivekanandas novels n magzines he revealed der…if u dont hav tym 2 read atleast ask peple of RAMAKRISHNA MISSION(matth)…dey ll tel…. so frnds by da above definition it is confrmly clear dat ….da peple who born in INDIA r hindus…ok whether he belong 2 hindu religion r muslim r christianity r any other…..
and
according to religious definition……
da peple who fallow VEDAS r knowN as HINDUS…
I think u peple got wat i want to say…..da geagraphical definition is difrnt frm religious defnition….n here every commmon peple r having very great n huge misnomer dat dis INDIA is of only one religion….ie HINDUS…
peple r havng wrng idea among thmeselves…n dey known only about d religious definition….n dey feel dat d INDIA is of hindus(as acc reliigious def)….wer hindus means d peple who born within borders of INDIA(acc to geo def)…hindusthani…means person belonging to INDIA wich means who recides within INdia…hav u got it frns….
so finally …. evry peple who born in INDIA is hindu if we consider geo deff only ..okayyyyy…..n i bornd in india so im hindu muslim ie indian muslim acc to geo deff….hindu christian n lyk dat follows fa evry religion…..n INDIA is of evry person who brnd here….but not only of hindus religion only..ie acc to religipus deff……beee proud to be an indian…dont mislead peple here…
September 18th, 2009 at 10:47 am
hindus and muslims have lived in peace for centuries in the land we called south asia , but since 19th century politics , increasing iliteracy , hatered , population and poverty has destroyed the centuries old communal harmony in souh asia at large , when punjabis regardless of religion before partition would celebrate eid and holi together . in sindh hindus and muslims would pray together in dargahs and eat together in temples.in kashmir where we see violence and war was always land of peace , where all kashmiris muslim , buddhist , hindus or sikh would pray all the shrine of the greatest sufi syed nooruddin noorani who promoted oness of god and concept of communal harmony as syed ji would had said ” why should muslim and hindus fight we are from the same parents “. still there is communal harmony in pakistan and india , in kerala , u.p , punjab , rajisthan , dehli , even in kashmir even in pakistan it is present we must pray to khuda , waheguru , ehswar , allah or god whatever name you may call to protect our great land of peace and save the greatest race the aryan race in the world , peace peace peace can only lead to progress which intend to lead towards prosperity to allllll people . plzzzzzzzzzzzzz plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz whether uu r a indian or pakistani whether u r a muslim or a hindu or a sikh or buddhist or a christian we are all the same , we are brothers in race in ethincity there is no difference between us plzzzzz save the only place the aryan race is found save the south asia save what i call aryana the land of the desi people the aryan race , i promote the philosophy of aryanism which is the only source of salvation for the aryan race which is suffering in its own homeland , the western secularism of the white people is not good for us , the communism of the russians is not good for us not even the orthodixity of extremist mullahs or the fanatical pundits more harmful and disgusting for my people , politics should have no room for religion or extremist ideologys which divieds and promoted hatered amoung brothers , work for peace , fight for peace , i belive that creation of pakistan was nesscary and was only possible solution to save south asia from civil war , but the present ideology of pakistan is a talibanization and so called islamization which is alien and foregin concept for many pakistanis who tend to follow moderate and tolerant islam of the south asia , even our great poets denounced fanatical mullahs and extremist ideologys like the great sindhi poet shah abdul latif bhittai , punjabi baba farid , guru nanak or bulleh shah even kashmiri sufi syed nooridin noorani belived in communal harmony which the essence of the greatness of the aryan race , jinnah wanted a pakistan where the mullah is at his mosque and where the army is in its baracks but if jinnah would be alive today and look at pakistans 62 year history ( HE WOULD HAVE CRIED TO DEAD )EVEN GANDHI WOULD HAVE KILLED HIMSELF IF HE WOULD HAVE SEEN THAT THE SECUALR INDIA IS DOMINATED BY DEMONS OR RAVANS LIKE THE BJP, RSS AND VHP.jinnah wanted a progressive pakistan not a pakistan ruled by religion ? no nation has ever be succesful as a religious state ? i belive only a highly vocal and potent minority in pakistan are extremist the rest are tolerant and extremely peaceful . jinnah wanted pakistan so that the majority muslim and hindus can be politically seperated so that there would be no civil war like the one in sri lanka where the sinhale and tamils r fightings if a seprate nation for tamils would have been created there would not have been so much bloodshed of the innocents , so creation of pakistan is never bad but its ideology of pakistani politicans of its militarization and islamziation has done ,” MORE MORE HARM THE GOOD ” as pakistan has lost bangladesh simply because our asshole leaders considered the bengalis as hinduized muslim or there infidel language unfortunately we have still not understood this and r still kilind ” BALOUCHS ” in there land simply because they want more autonomy which our corrupt leaders dont wanna give . unfortunately the militarization of pakistan has only increased talibanization , wars and dictatorship in pakistan , atleast the better thing we can learn from our indian bhai or bro is that they never ever had dictators like we had . i pray to god save my nation ( pakistan ) , save my ancestral land ( india ) , save my race ( aryan ) , save all people of south asia from war and violence , peacee peace peace shanti shanti shanti aman aman amam to alllll allll alll , sub kooooooooo
September 18th, 2009 at 11:30 am
Vikas, your post exposes the attitude South Asians have towards their working poor. Casteism has influenced all of South Asians irrespective of their religion. It is considered alright to yell at poor chowkidar or slap the 16 year old servant. Desensitising children against poor individuals of society the same way British used to desensitise thir own against ’stupid, dirty Indians’ is normal behavior.
September 18th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
May peace be on all…
I have almost gone thru all the comments posted so far and it good to see different opinions. However, I believe we could roughly classify these into three groups.
1. Who understand whats happening around and are well aware of the past. But forgetting about the atrocities and bad in past, wanna get with what they could for a better future.(Hats off)
2. People some how of the same thinking, but the difference they don’t wanna give up thinking of past and lulling in it. And that makes them extremist and that reflect in the comments. Duty for group 1 is to speak and counsel these minds. We stand optimistic they could be lured with realities to betterment. (Chill and Reconsider).
3. The most dangerous, whether Pakistani or Indian, these gotta be addressed at priority. Coz such people are ones who cause category 1 and category 2 to reconsider the truth and Evil swaps with good. They neither have logic associated nor aware of why they ought to think the way And here is when I personally wanna be an extremist with the good in me, and clear off all such thoughts and so would you all. Lets not differentiate if a Hindu or Muslim or Christan, but lets strike these people to be better humans
And all you gentle people, lets live in peace and brotherhood not only on papers and emails and by comments, but by virtues and practice. Lets become excellent humans and there is a way to go. And thats what religion preaches and if we do we be religious practicing all we want.
HUMANIY…
September 18th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
@ post….. I think somewhere we look suspicious at Muslims n I think everyone have faced it, if you go for room, room owner must ask for your religion.. n I knew Its heart. But its a fact too, we been seeing Islam as a terror from dis decades start.
Some of the Politician support it for their own gains.
I’ll suggest we have to close all the schools which relate to religion(whatever its private or govermental or related to some religious groups).
It will help if student learn together.. then they will know that nothing in religion..they are same as them.
SPREAD BROTHERHOOD…..LOVE AND BELOVED…
September 19th, 2009 at 12:02 am
I think so poverty is the greatest handicap in life. You see the entire World the people who are poor always treated with abhorrent attitude. You can not see even a single country in the World where poor people are given good treatment. No matter what your religion is you always face discrimination if you have no money in your pocket. See the example of America where Black people have to snatch their rights from White people just because white people are wealthier. Talking about India I feel there are a lot of Muslims who are superior than Hindus just because they are rich while the reverse is true for poor Muslims. In Pakistan We People see that only poor People are killed in the name of Terrorism while rich Terrorits are given VIP Protocol like Muslim Khan the Taliban Commander is Getting. It is America and Russia who are fostering a hatred among South Asian Countries just as America wants to conquer this land which is full of natural resources. I think so we must forget what a person’s cast or religion or country is but we must always consider the character that one person possess. We must be friends with India because war always claims lives of poor people not rich one’s as they escape from the country whenever they are insecure about their life.
September 19th, 2009 at 1:42 am
@Manan: Jani soch hai teri :p
nahi yakeen ? try ar k dekh le
September 19th, 2009 at 3:20 am
@Irfan: glad to read ur post, perhaps whatever i wanted to write is all there.
the writer has brought in a topic yet again on Religion, and see how it lead so many mortals again fighting and abusing each other….!!
September 19th, 2009 at 6:04 am
Wow Wow….This is amazing…..sewer rats giving me lessons on hygiene and cleanlinesss….
Secularism, Pluralism…tolerance of religion is not something I want to learn from Pakis or any muslim majority country. You guys openly discriminate against minorities..in fact they are not allowed to vote or take higher posts…in fact a sikh guy becoming a sepoy in ur military was a big news…( wE have had many musslim presidents and countless Chief ministers and vice presidents already). You have blaspemy laws by which you can legally prosecute a hapless inocent majority.
Quoting holy Bhagwad Gita….well quran talks about kafirs being najis and fit to be tortured and killed in as many verses as possibles.
For once and for all….pakis or citizens of any muslim theocratic cuntry…please do not talk about secularism, pluralism, equality and respect for other religions….It is not something u practise…so pls do not preach.
September 19th, 2009 at 6:41 am
Wow Wow….This is amazing…..sewer rats giving me lessons on hygiene and cleanlinesss….
Secularism, Pluralism…tolerance of religion is not something I want to learn from Pakis or any muslim majority country. You guys openly discriminate against minorities.. HECK IT IS A LAW MAN..in fact they are not allowed to vote or take higher posts…in fact a sikh guy becoming a sepoy in ur military was a big news…( wE have had many musslim presidents and countless Chief ministers and vice presidents already). You have blaspemy laws by which you can legally prosecute a hapless inocent mainorities. Minorities are easy game for kidnapping rape murder and forcible conversion. The law to protect minorities does not exist. In fact the holly quran sanctions all kinds of atrocities against kafirs.
Quoting holy Bhagwad Gita….well quran talks about kafirs being najis and fit to be tortured and killed in as many verses as possibles.
For once and for all….pakis or citizens of any muslim theocratic cuntry…please do NOT talk about secularism, pluralism, equality and respect for other religions….It is OPPOSITE OF WHAT u practise…so pls do NOT preach to us.
In fact to have a first hand view of pakistani forum members view on secularism in their cunntry , view readers respose to the only sensible post by Sajjid mullick:
http://ibrahimsajidmalick.com/towards-secular-pakistan/148/
September 19th, 2009 at 6:59 am
Religion is Humanity…
@ DevD: Brother we are not here to bring our harsh and misinterpreted views of religion, but to seek a midway wherein we all could find peace in our ideas and in practice. I know we all have some grudges with each other but that’s becoz of mere misunderstandings. And yes we have done certain mistakes in past, but that doesn’t mean we should just stick to those black days. Present is what we are concerned about. Lets try to put forth the best of what we could to stop on this on going confusion and chaos. As they say, pointing a finger to someone, and the rest of four are directed to yourself. So lets not speak of what they have done, but what we have in the betterment of things.
Rest speaking of religion, neither does Gita nor Quraan or for that matter any Holy Scripture direct us to do any inhumane. Wherein we are diverged becoz of our misunderstanding of the sayings. A Muslim if misuses a saying from Quraan, never means Quraan is to be blamed. And similarly, if A hindu does the same which the Gita never said,doesn’t give us the right to raise ourselves against it. So lets forget about religion coz all preach the same i.e. Humanity.
I would like to give you an example. I once was in need of drinking water which we ought to purchase from a vendor. I had everything, I mean money and the empty canister to get it replaced with a filled one, but one of my Hindu brothers I approached here denied to replace on the reason that the canister was a bit shabby which never was my fault as I had been provided it the same way. Not understanding how important water could be, he straight forwardly refused. Does that mean I say all Hindu and the same and the Holy scripture teach them it. No, coz it’s not the the religion or the scripture, but the humanly instinct in him which made him to do so. Brother we are humans and any good in us helps us to be an angel and an bad in us deteriorates and leads us to satanical doings.
With these words I would sincerely apologize if any word of mine has tried to deviate from truth and humanity. I pray and I believe we all would surely soon understand the shortcomings in us and rectify ourselves as best humans on earth.
Peace
September 19th, 2009 at 7:10 am
it is unfair to judge an entire nation’s take on this issue by one such case. agreed muslims are treated with contempt at many places..but there are also thousands of stories of unity and oneness among our people. in many communities hindus and muslims live in remarkable harmony.
September 19th, 2009 at 9:16 am
Dude irfan – i do not understand what u r trying to tell me here. I appreciate u trying to seek a middle path etc etc.
My point is this – I can listen to an american, brits and even israels talk of pluralism and secularism because they practise it at least to some degree. Out here in the muslim lands, dude ….you have made RELIGIOUS DISCRIMINATION LEGAL MAN !!! It is right up there in the constitution for chirssake !!!
IN FACT more the bigot you are in the mussy lands, the prouder you can be. RELIGIOUS PERSECUION OF MINORITIES is perfectly fine as per bludy LAW. You guys make no pretensions of being secular at all!! Non muslims do not have voting rights, can be screwed under blasphemy laws, r subject to forcible conversions etc etc. They just are lucky to exist in one piece. They are at you mercy. I think they enjoy a wee bit more freedom than cattle !!
It is with this background that I say that mussies from pak demanding secularism and pluralism for their ilk (who are nothing lesss than a nuisance across any civilised world anyway) is little too much. You cannot throw shit and expect flowers in return.
And by the way Quran is perfectly fine with the persecution of kafirs.In fact kafirs can be persecuted and enslaved and it is duty of every mussie to convert dar ul harb to dar ul islam.
Dont smoke imaginary smoke pipes here.
September 19th, 2009 at 9:19 am
@irfan – if you want to start a new beginning and want me listen to all this. I would like to a very reasonable change to start with – if pakistan can be declared a secular nation. Is it possible ?
September 19th, 2009 at 9:49 am
And by the way I certainly have reservations about the bigot MORON from a THEOCRATIC FANATIC country like paakistaan writing an article like ‘Is India a model or religious pluralism?’
Is pakistan ‘a model country to provide even basic human rights to it minorties, forget pluralism and secularism’. Basci human rights like voting rights to minorities to begin with.
September 19th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Brother DevD
I’m not a Paki at the first place. And secondly I’m a Muslim practicing my religion in India. And if I start with my grudges and miseries what we have been put through won’t make sense right now. Becoz what happened is past and I’m concerned about the present and future.
Well I’m really grateful to India as a nation, which gave me all my freedom though we had some tough times and some of us are still inflicted here n there. But I wouldn’t just go about counting all what may inculcate hatred in me. And you dislike people saying pluralism and secularism when they don’t entertain it in their land. Even am I of the same opinion. You know the weakest of all are who instead of balance their life try n point finger on the one who at least tries to strike a balance. So no need to shout on them, but you could calmly try to help and cure them.* And my first comment was on the same basis.
I never did wanna interfere you saying all those comments on people pointing at us, but once you indulge religion the reason for wrong I would object.
Ya say, “Quraan is perfectly fine with the persecution of kafirs.In fact kafirs can be persecuted and enslaved and it is duty of every mussie to convert dar ul harb to dar ul islam”.
My dear brother, had you ever at least tried to understand Quraan yourself instead of getting how others i.e. heed less take it, I believe you would have been totally different in your views. Now here I’m not trying to force you for something, as you may say I’m Muslim and asking you to read The Quraan. But if you believe something, try to get evidence and then explain. I mean converting and all, I really don’t buy this belief of your’s w.r.t Quraan. If you wanna friendly discussion on it, i would say lets have a live chat, maybe yahoo, gmail where ever ya say. You help me with what you know and I would try and help you with mine. And if we conclude with something beneficial, that would be real great. Whats say?
Rest ya say Pakistan is following Islamic law and according to what Quraan says, I again disagree. To me they partly implement it whr they like and forget whr it doesn’t serve them. So just don’t say them to be a totally Islamic and Quraan following Government. And true is for most of the so called Islamic countries.
May peace be on all of us.
September 19th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
RAJ K and VIKAS ……….. plzzzzzzzzzzzz get well soon…….
at one side …… ur saying the article was a total shit cuz this doesnt happen in India… n on the other hand… u r toally biased… n ur choice of words and language ………… what thus that depict ……..love for Muslims in India…. DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
n ppl who are neutral who are trying to make this world a better place to live in …. GOOD WORK…. we have to do this with the hope that ppl like RAJ K and VIKAS would learn from it which appears they’d not ………
n for ppl who are saying k Pakistan is the place from where terrorism started………. just a simple question ………….. … where is there a need for 26 Indian Embasees on India AFghan border..so whose supplying the so called bloody Muslim terrorist money and weapons………
my earlier post was totally neutral .. n many of the muslims who had written here had also followed the same track … if sumone doesnt speak doesnt mean he cudnt…. my earlier question was just to tell that we can but why try to fuel the fire of hatred which started 60 yrs ago…60 long yrssssss………. n i request all u ppl to pray for ppl like RAJ K and Vikas to get well soon …..so that both Paksitan and India would be clear from paranoids having extremist thoughts and mid Set ……
Aimennn
September 19th, 2009 at 5:47 pm
Vikas and Raj are real- this is what majority of poor muslims face in India. But i have news for you- this exactly how all poor people are treated— with contempt.
The grand alliance between the Dalits, the Muslims, and the Communists failed–just like it failed in the 1940. Then they couldn’t unite. Now they united but were stabbed in the back by some in the opposition who supported the government. The vote of no confidence failed because the Congress spent millions of Dollars in bribes and even allowed convicted members of Parliament who were in jail to come in a vote for Premier Singh’s government.
Their propagandistic deception begins with the simple use of the word democracy. ..India qualifies as a constitutional republic, let alone a true democracy. Rife with election fraud, Corporatism, gross wealth disparities, militarism, belligerent expansionism, toxic nationalism, and a laundry list of traits characterizing a fascist state, the United States could easily qualify as one of democracy’s greatest foes. India does not lag far behind.
Hype and spin aside, determined investigation and fastidious scholarship by people like Bangladeshi barrister M.B.I. Munshi, researcher Isha Khan, and many others reveal the ugly realities behind India’s corporate media façade. India and the United States do share a number of commonalities, but few of them relate to “democracy”, “liberty”, or “solid moral foundations”.
While it is true that both nations were founded by noble people who wrested themselves free of the yoke of Great Britain’s imperial oppression, like degenerate trust fund children, the heirs of liberty have defecated on their family’s reputation and squandered their fortune.
As Munshi’s exhaustive research demonstrates, India’s policies, attitudes, and actions toward its neighbors are quite analogous to the machinations of the United States throughout Central and South America. Replete with its own version of the Monroe Doctrine (Akhand Bharat) and an intelligence agency called RAW (their version of the CIA), India has a long-term commitment to wielding undue power and influence throughout the subcontinent. Accelerating Humanity’s Demise By Jason Miller
There were many visionaries in the Subcontinent who saw the dangers of majoritarianism. A few had the foresight who actually came up with plans to resolve the rights of the minorities in the Subcontinent. His Cabinet Mission Plan was a stroke of genious and would have bridged the gap between Hindu and Muslim, Sikh and Dalit. It was torpedoed by the right wing of the Indian National Congress which shunned not only Jinnah but also Ambedkar and Bose. Thus began the politics of race, religion and creed.
September 20th, 2009 at 1:42 am
Dear Indian musalman -very simple if India is so bad welcome to go back to ur motherland pakistan. We can live without your gracious prescence.
@Irfan – thanks for the patience and explaination.I am just curious, take a look at the viewers response to the post below :
http://ibrahimsajidmalick.com/towards-secular-pakistan/148/
All the muslims are unanimous that a muslim majority nation cannot be secular and qurran says so. You may be sane voice in ur community but u r definetely in minority.
September 20th, 2009 at 2:46 am
It is because of people like you that the common indian and pakistani are at odds with each other… You should be ashamed of urself for propogating such a hateful propaganda…. We do not discriminate between Hindus and muslims in our country… neither are they forced to convert … Equal rights are given to everyone…. it is for them to make the most of it…. and this was a one off case where the school refused a child to grow a beard… most Muslims in India are free to practise their religious beliefs even in schools and colleges.. I have seen my muslim friends in college read the namaaz in the safety of the girls common room with many non-muslim girls moving around…. so before you start preaching our intolerance of religion please have a look at the state of conditions in ur own country first….The british divided us with the divide and rule policies they followed and unfortunately the leaders of today follow the same diversionary tactic to draw our attention away from their inefficiencies… and people like u blinded by ur own illogical hatred and frustrations further drive a wedge in our relationships… if you cannot help the situation please do not worsen them…
September 20th, 2009 at 4:14 am
Mr. Sajid Ibrahim Malick, please, your a Pakistani and for that you must really mind your Pakistani business. I understand that you are a Muslim and have sentiments towards other muslims.
But let me assure you that the vast majority of Indians from whatever background not merely tolerate one another but have very good respect and understanding of one another.
As far as the plight of any person, his rights etc., is concerned, they can approach the Law System. Our Judicial system may not be strongest, but is getting stronger by the day.
As far as the Muslims are concerned, the fact is their lives are better in India than in Pakistan. Not a single Indian Muslim was found to be part of the Al-qaeda till 2003. After 2003 however Some were brainwashed outside India and those inside India were recruited by your government agents. For its your government and State which believes in having the religion (Islam) in its system. Pakistan only exists now only because its state is Islamised by fundamental teaching. But what a pity, even this strategy has only backfired upon you. Muslims of your country are killing each other more than anyone else in the world.
So please Mr Ibrahim Sajid Malick stop worrying about Indians, we will take care of them.
I can give you this assurance because I am worshipper of Lord Aiyappan, Lord Aiyappan is a symbol of unity and communal harmony and going to his pilgrimage involves going to a place of worship of a sufi saint a muslim. Yes, thats right, a muslim place of worship. Lord Aiyappans pilgrimage is one of the largest in the world. So, as long as people worship him, muslims will be safer in India.
India is a spiritual country, home to a number of religions and not just Hindus. Unlike Pakistan, which is a religious country having no tolerance or respect for other backgrounds. Such a belief of Pakistan will only lead to the Isolation of it from the world.
My request to you is to look at the plight of the minorities and especially the Hindus who are peaceful by nature. The atrocities committed against them can boil the blood of any Hindu. Pakistan has committed a genocide against minorities whose numbers have declined to shocking levels.
Every week the number of minorities entering India as refugees is rising.
Our government still do not have a refugee policy so these refugees are stuck here with no job or any government assistance.
If you are a true muslim and believe in tolerance and co-existance then let us see you raise your voice against these atrocities.
September 20th, 2009 at 4:17 am
@tusharsingh:
what did you achieve by your comment????????
September 20th, 2009 at 4:30 am
my dad was an indian muslim living in punjab before partition.now we livee in pakistan.anyways he told me a very interesting story once.when he was a school-going boy, he never took lunch to school. all he had to do was touch the food of any hindu and the hindu would not eat his food cuz a muslim had touched it and made it impure.he always had a good lunch made by different cooks everyday!
i rest my case.
September 20th, 2009 at 4:50 am
Well, this problem lies in every country with Muslims. I will not point out only India for such things. We Muslims are not treated well in any country. This is becuase of the greatness of Muslims. Because, Muslims attract non muslims towards them easily and the non muslims get inspired by Islam and by our dailylife activities and our living style. Our living style is better than any other religion.
Therefore the other people or religions are afraid of our religion.
September 20th, 2009 at 9:46 am
salam everyone…i’m an indian muslim and live in a ‘Muslim Ghetto’…discrimination of course is a harsh reality in India and its not just with Muslims that the religious ‘apartheid’ has broken out..the caste ‘apartheid’ is nothing new to india…but people like RAJ and ViKAS are a unioun of some factors apart from the fact that some people are born to hate …the false propaganda by the Media and the Divisive Politics in the Nation are two of them…now after al this and the history of RELIGIOUS riots in India the status now is “POLARISATION”… Muslims live in a ghetto, hindus live in their ghetto and every other community is makin its own ghetto….as long as this barrier remains between the two communities they cannot co-exist and any small reason is enough to go for one another’s throat..its very dangerous..its been five years since i’m convincing my dad that we live in a plural colony but he always lists me colonies where muslim houses in the past were burnt and bodies dismembered….
September 20th, 2009 at 10:10 am
every school has some rules and regulations and that has to be followed at any cost. They have certain standard of codes and ethics;dressing style.Mainly the the dressing style and fashion has to be strongly enforced. I as a teenager also had a fetish of having long hair and colored beard. But once the school authorities banned such practise,fashion, and dressing low waist jeans ; i had to comply as i wanted to study in that school.Discipline has to be maintained at school at any cost.You can’t get away citing religion all the time.
If i had been in that bloke’s place; i would have to chose between my beard and my education.He should have left the school to go to such school which gave him such liberty.
If the school has expelled him after following proper procedure like giving him and his guardians warnings,notices; then i think the school is absolutely right.
September 20th, 2009 at 10:35 am
Religions is not as your fashions. Religion is very important matter in human life. While the fashion styles you can adopt and give up any time. Its your own wish to adopt a fashion style like urs one.
Religion is not like that. Religion is our faith. So, please never compare your fashion styles with any religion.
September 20th, 2009 at 10:37 am
@ sushant …i agreee that the schools should have their ethics and dress codes but that cannot be outlandish…when they have established a school in India, they should chalk out such codes that do not meddle wit people’s religious beliefs…and people in India are known to be very attached to their respective religions..its al about mutual respect, compromise and cooperation…the bottom line is we can CO-EXIST…a sardar with pagdi, a muslim with beard, a christain with his cross and a hindu with his bottu….can sit in a class
September 20th, 2009 at 11:10 am
Indianmusalman
A deep analysis.
“India and the United States do share a number of commonalities, but few of them relate to “democracy”, “liberty”, or “solid moral foundations”.
Democracy and liberty are worthwhile qualities and capitalism lacks a moral positiveness. Expansionist policies of states at the cost of ghettoisation of their poor is a crime bigger than negligence. Comparing USA and India on expansionism could be misplaced as India has just set foot in the direction of securing resources in foreign countries and USA is the only superpower. Numbers on poverty and illiteracy between the two countries do not match. We have not found an alternative political system that could replace liberal democracy and the 21st. century so far reveals that international imperialism could evolve into a multi-country joint venture to include China and India besides Europe and Russia. Ideas of revolution against the modern state has been shelved by the left and participation in democracy is considered the only means to struggle for the rights of the poor.
In India and Pakistan, conservatism, superstition and bigotry is deep-rooted through religion. Multi-ethnic and multi-religious organisations representing rights of the poor could succeed in forming bonds between people that has been broken by the divisive, opportunistic policies of the oppressive rulers. Education is very important. Respect. Peace.
September 20th, 2009 at 11:14 am
this comment comes from a national of a country which does not allow its citizen to vote!
how can a person who has not seen freedom can comment on it if want to see muslim status in india see our vice president ,former president or for matter of the fact a boy from modest family now cricketing super star irfan pathan .
September 20th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
@yusuf: That is NOTHING compared to how minorities in Pakistan are treated…so before any of u guys point fingers at india, make sure ur country is not at fault…otherwise, you’re just a bunch of hyppocrites..
September 20th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
@yusuf:
This comes from an uppercaste Hindu…lowers castes and minorities have quotas from where they complete their education and secure jobs…people like me just have to struggle…please do ur research before you post..
September 20th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
I’ve read quite a few comments saying muslims are ill treated in india..if that’s the case why are they still here?? If anyone from pakistan feels that muslims here are ill treated then you’re welcome to take them ‘home’…any muslim in india feeling the same might as well leave…if you feel no patriotism towards the country you stay in, there is no point in staying there…
September 20th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
One single action does not reflect the whole nation. It is easy to sit and point fingers at others but we should also look at our own back yard. At the onset I will tell you I am an Indian but with a world view.
No country is perfect and India has it’s share of problems. India is 2nd most populated country in the world. So you cannot even imagine the issues faced due to this fact. I do not know the exact percentage but I know Muslims are the largest minority in India. So every one, Muslims or non-Muslims have their fair share.
The problem is with the perception. Since the partition Pakistan and India have been enemies. Although we have shared so many things like music, food, movies etc but the animosity never reduced between the 2 nations.
Let me give you some examples from India –
* Bollywood has umpteen examples like the 3 Khan i.e. Even Salman’s brother have done well.
* 2 Oscars won by Indian are Muslim by religion. They were celebrated and respected for their achievements.
* Monday is a national holiday here to celebrate Id. Even banks will be closed.
* Father of our nuclear program APJ Abdul Kalam. What about A Q Khan ?
I can go on typing till no end. I challenge any non-Muslim country to prove they have the same level of respect for Muslims. The same challenge is for Muslim countries – how much respect and tolerances do you have for other religion?
Do respond to this post….
September 20th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
What propoganda!
Indian schools do discriminate against girls wearing bindi, against boys wearing religious threads, and hindus in general from wearing any ’tilaks’ on the forehead. ONLY Sikhs are allowed the turbans because it is part of their religion- then too they have to follow a code of wearing it.
Please do not be biased- for the sake of desi community worldwide, we asians should love each other.
September 20th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
Gandhi & Jinnah, both were towering personalities. Both men were well read and smart enough to know, that a nation state cannot survive solely on the basis of religion, especially in today’s pluralistic environment.
And somebody on this thread commented the Two nation theory was Jinnah’s brainchild and he executed it. Nothing can be farther from the truth.
Those who do not read & learn from history, are bound to repeat it. The idea of a muslim nation state was that of Syed Ahmed Khan, and later Allama Iqbal (who, incidentally, penned India’s national song “Saare Jahaan se achha” )
The idea was brought to fruition by scheming behind the scenes actors, who had vested interests in real estate, but needed a facade. Mr Jinnah was a very sophisticated and secular Indian, who lived most of his life in Bombay, but was convinced into the idea of Pakistan, exactly at the moment when he had a disagreement with Nehru over seat sharing in the provincial govt. under the british. Jinnah wanted a loose indian federation with equal and protected rights for all communities, including the muslims, and never a separate country.
Few pakistanis would know that the quaid recruited a Hindu poet to write Pakistan’s first national anthem, thus wanting to sow the seeds of secularism in his new country. The country set out as a democratic and secular nation, but soon fell to the pressures of the zamindaars who needed the religion alibi to keep going with their feudalism.
And all this was still 70-80 YEARS ago!
Mark my words. Borders of nation states are not static. They change. The lines we’ve drawn on the subcontinent were not there 200 years ago. 200 years from now these won’t be there. There might be a different set. Or, i pray, there may be none.
Religion:
We’ve all witnessed comments flying from both sides saying Hindus are that and Muslims are this.
After reading all those comments, do you not feel it is high time we just grew up.
There is nothing that we don’t know. Every single person on this thread knows and believes we are humans first and hindus/muslims/christians later. If that is what it is, if that is what you know, why is it so difficult to act on this knowledge that you already have.
The venom that this Raj guy was spewing in a few posts above mine, is a result of the conditioning we give our children. We tell our children that the hindu majority schemes against the muslim minority, OR, the muslims are the in-bred lot, not nice people and what not.
You know, it is not really difficult to just stop telling your children how other religions are bad and your own is the best. Why don’t we just tell them whats good about our own faith (Both the Hindu and Islamic faith, by the way, are inclusive and loving)
Let them go out and discover for themselves whats good and bad. Trust me, they’ll do a better job than you can imagine, and a far better job than what we ourselves managed to do with the conditioning our parents gave us.
And the ones who are out to ‘PROTECT’ their faith (every religion has its bunch of nincompoops who’ve taken upon themselves to DEFEND their faith), please let me tell you, the day your faith starts ‘needing’ your protection, is the day that faith has lost its place in human consciousness. Your faith does not need you to protect it. It is far greater and taller in stature and its message to people so profound and so noble, that it has and will stand through all the tests it has to go through.
All us enlightened souls know that the whole universe and all that is contained in it, came from a single source (i’m sure you’ve all read ‘the big bang’ theory, but never thought of it in this light) then why create your own artificial differences and fight and kill over those?
Apologies for the sermonising. And about the theme of this post – india (ill)treating its minorities – and specific reference to muslims. There has to be some merit to the fact that a majority of the community’s religious leaders are not doing a brilliant job. The victim paranoia, education and health of the community in general has alot to do with what is taught at the religious congregation. I mean what response would you give to the mullah, who in his friday sermon asks muslim parents to not give their children polio immunity drops because it was the hindu govt.’s ‘chaal’ to hurt their children. (never mind that the same medicine was being administered to all children who were brought to the healt centres, irrespective of faith)
If minorities, in general, have been ill treated and deliberately kept away from economic opportunities, what explains the the rise in fortunes of the Christian and Sikh minorities in India? In spite of the fact that both have suffered similar instances of discrimination and been at the receiving end of violence and rioting by a few fundamentalist bigots?
No nation is perfect and neither are India or Pakistan. There was and will always be crime and deviation from moral behaviour (in this case, religious discrimination). But we’ve to decide what is the standard deviation we want to allow in a country of one and a half billion people.
I believed the problem in India is quite the opposite. The successive governments and the system itself, is so aware of the possibility and incidence of discrimination, that to nullify the effect the past behaviour, that it has pro-actively created checks, balances, safe guards, provisions and reservations for minorities (not just religious, but also regional, ethnic, and caste based). And that, today, has become counter productive, to the extent that if any individual finds himself in the sorry state of being absent in any of the classified minorities, he is at such a disadvantage, for he will not find a reserved seat for himself in either an instititution of higher learning or for a govt employment opportunity.
The situation is such that people are fighting and rioting to have themselves classified as ‘Backward Class’ (it doesn’t matter that they’ve been at the higher spectrum of the societal structure for centuries).
I think it is highly unfair to sit on a higher pedestal and judge India, and summarily declare that it systematically ill treats the minorities.
Not one country in this world is a perfect model for religious pluralism, but if you were to list out the countries who’ve actually done something to acknowledge and accept multiple systems of religion withing one nation state and also prevent discrimination and systematically create opportunities on the basis of merit and not an individual’s subscription of a particular faith, i’d say India figures on top of that list.
September 20th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
who gives these pakis the right to publish such crap about india on their blogs? i dont have an answer to that, but i have other points to state here
everyone who tries to promote muslims in india must remember the fact that india is a secular country because of its hindu majority, you cannot name one nation with muslim majority that treats all religions alike, even on paper.
opinions do not form out thin air, its the experience that shapes opinions, muslims are everywhere associated with intolerance, and whats worse about them, their intolerance increases as they become more educated (this blog proves the point)
if we cast an open ‘yes/no’ vote on the subject “muslims = intolerance” then i am sure more than 50% of world (non-muslim) population would say yes.
you cannot name one thing, except non-veg dishes, that muslim cultures have given to this world.
what do we, what should we expect out of a religion whose scriptures say that every person on earth must be a muslim, implicit belief is that all other religions are inferior, implies that if a muslim treats his hindu friend as an equal he is actually violating his religion!!
what can i expect out of people whose religion prohibits them from respecting me, the religion that says ‘there is just one god, and only he commands true respect’ (may i interpret this as no living creature commands respect, because there is nothing like false respect or less respect)
how can the world leaders expect peace from muslim nations when their basic motive is that only muslims are worthy of living (palistene and isreal conflict is a proof of the point).
equality is something that comes out from the heart, and respect is the basis of all equality, respect everyone and everyone will be equal, be it a slug or a pig or an elephant… religion fades away like white smoke when you respect others. but when you dont respect others, there is no hope.
September 20th, 2009 at 8:18 pm
@ ameesh: You hit the nail on head. Perfect words. That is the irony of it all.
The very same people wants non muslim majority countries to be secular and muslim majority countries to have sharia implemented.
September 20th, 2009 at 9:35 pm
For Muslims ! It is not the overgrown hair growth on the face or the head it is something very deep inside a which has been put there since childhood that you are a human apart of other humans you are not to accept any other form of social system may it be education,governance,social behaviour,acceptance or tolerance of any other religeous belief.Your God is the only one one and none other are acceptable.So it becomes a external sign of rebelion for all the reasons , it is potrayed and perceived as the great wish to go back 1600 years and take the rest of the humanity.A community which has rejected the commonly used calender just today ,The Eid Day ,as a great sin.
Now what
September 20th, 2009 at 9:39 pm
@raheem: To Raheem :
See One in 50 is better than the ration of population of Muslims in INDIA (18%).There is no discrimination here … Muslims in enjoy great privileges, they have reservations in schools get HAJ subsidy … guess no other country gives this to their citizens … when INDIAN Hindus do not get this for their religious tours.
And Mr.IBRAHIM SAJJID MALLICK better mind ur countries endless problems rather than poking ur nose in ours.Go & find out how many heads of men have got chopped off & how many women are getting whipped.
September 20th, 2009 at 11:27 pm
there no dening the fact that all kinds of discrimination exists in India. We are not proud of this fact. Incidently major cause of discrimination is not relision but is money.
The pluses that we have here are freedom to say or publish what you think is right and democratic nature of government, justice system and media freedom. With these we hope to fight the injustice peresent in this country. And there is hope for us. I dont think this can be said about our neighbours. Common people there are just getting caught in betwwen agendas of politisions. Genetically Pakistanis and Indians are the same people. It was all one region from ancient times. In reality pakistan would greatly benefit from indian experties in most fields. Thats what we should do, share our knowledge and wealth, insted of bickiring about unnecessary stuff.
September 20th, 2009 at 11:49 pm
well i’m not surprised to see all this hatred between Indian’s and Pakistani’s but i never thought that it goes down deep to Hindu’s and Muslims. I’m a Zoroastrian guy born and brought up in neither of the two countries and have mingled with people from both religions and countries. Obviously such issues do not exist in the west and the people from both religions and countries live together like brothers. One thing which i find really weird is that someone posted a comment saying ” Dear Indian musalman -very simple if India is so bad welcome to go back to ur motherland pakistan. We can live without your gracious prescence”, this is one of the reason my family migrated from India in the first place because they considered them Parsi’s first and then Indians. India is a secular country and no faith, sect or cast, be it majority or minority has any right to tell anyone to go back.
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September 21st, 2009 at 8:33 am
@danial: Dear Danial – very simple, whoever criticizes his country, whoever loves pakistan more than India is welcome to go there. It is a simple logic, my dear. We have had enuff of havoc created by some of these Islamic fanatics, who take advantage of our secularism and demand sharia laws in my country.
Just check the pakistani reaction to secularism in the readers comments on:
http://ibrahimsajidmalick.com/towards-secular-pakistan/148/. It is surprising that these very people want secularism in India and all non muslim cuntries.
September 21st, 2009 at 8:36 am
@ameesh: You are wrong that muslim contribution is only non veg dishes. how bout suicide bombing, jihad, killing non muslims, forcible conversions, brutal sharia and cowardly bombing of innocent people. Now that’s some contribution.
September 21st, 2009 at 3:51 pm
@mr ringer…….”how bout suicide bombing, jihad, killing non muslims, forcible conversions, brutal sharia and cowardly bombing of innocent people. Now that’s some contribution.”….it surprises me that educated people have this notion about islam and muslims….this has nothing to do with islam….islam is quite different frm waht its publicized in the media…and if muslims do suicide bombings, its their personal war against the armies which blw thier homes, rape their women, make them live in fear…its very easy to say that..but if u go thr that trauma u wil understand…and forcible conversions aren’t conversions at al.(quran says so)… jihad is struggle yar…it starts wit the purification of self….’one meanin of ISLAM is peace’how can it certify killing of innocent people…please understand ISLAM first hand frend
September 21st, 2009 at 10:07 pm
I encourage and request Mr. Raj-K to post more comments … he is just proving the point made in the blog post .. (should I add SIMPLE)!!
September 21st, 2009 at 10:28 pm
یہ سب DOLLERS کا کمال ہے
September 22nd, 2009 at 12:39 am
india is a poor country , ruled by fanatic stupid hindus, O Muslims&Christians of india you will never be safe there, hindus will always torture you and try to ruin your lives and never let you follow your religion like the case mentioned in the post. So your only options are to
1) either go for another separatist movement.
2) Miggrate to some muslim country.
India will have to be broken down to furthur soverign states as small as Bangladesh. And ofcourse hindus will keep fueling this notion by acting stupid( like above and like always).India is not meant to be one state. Minorities will have to realise this and get rid of coward hindus
September 22nd, 2009 at 12:48 am
hi
everybody, i am Rebecca working in Multinational firm in the US. Am an indian by origin. And i even find the idea of returning to india and living there extremely horrifying . I would never want to live in a state where the majority wants to insult and inflict loss and pain upon you by one means or the other. Here is the US christians are the majority but you wont find any case of religious harrasment. Hindus are actually a little backward and conservative,they have to upgrade themselves, looks like they are living somewhere in the past . Christians or Muslims when migrate to other countries , never think of returning and thats the truth. Hindus seem to fail again and agin in recovering from there mental disorders. Indian Christians will have look for independence in the near future(sorry , no offence)
September 22nd, 2009 at 12:50 am
Yup. David is right. We hindus are stupid and the people from minorities which are doing exceling in their field are doing it because they are scared. So all they are going to do is they want to earn money from India and migrate to Palestine, Turkey, Pakistaan, Bangaladesh, Iran, Iraq, Afganistaan, Nigeria.
Bravo David!!! you have high IQ unlike Hindus
September 22nd, 2009 at 3:06 am
To the author:
My Indian teachings tells me not to blame others if u r not able to live your own life sinlessly. My indian teachings also includes teachings of Islam and that tells me the same.
I wonder whether they teach you some other Islam in Pakistan.
Salim had a controversy with his school. As his basic human right, he fought against it successfully and he was supported in his fight.
He won but that does not matter. The most imp point here is that he could fight and he was allowed to approach the hightest judicial authority in India as a normal citizen of India.
This is what India is!
Wherever in this world there is a majority-minority issue based on religion, caste, color, customs or language – It is simply human that the minority will be looked upon with raised eyebrows from the Majority. Nobody cam be blamed here, I repeat it is only human to do so. But what happens after that, makes ALL THe DIFFERENCE.
1. Is the minor allowed to raise his voice or he fears to be crushed?
2. Is the system ready to hear all voices or is it biased and extremist?
3. Is the system ready to realise and rectify it’s mistakes if recognized?
And now take this Mr Author- Replace Salim by Ram and replace Pakistan by Hindustan. Replace Salim’s beared by Ram’s tilak on his forehead or any other religious symbol.
What are the chances that the Ram would get the same treatment in Pakistan as Salim got in Hindustan?
@ David and Rebecca
Dear friends, My teachings also tell me one very simple thing:
“Never judje the book by it’s cover”. I wud go a bit further and say that when you do not know urself completely, how on the hell you claim to know about a far located country so well.
And that too this extent that you have passed a straight judgement for the place where billions of people are living with each other inspite of having numerous differences. I am impressed by you guys, you must be almost very close to becoming God Himself. Amazing!
September 22nd, 2009 at 3:55 am
Well the main reason i feel is people’s tendency not to change or their reluctance on change. Religion, custom, culture all these are volatile things and keep on changing with respect to time. So we human have been tring to adapt these changes as it comes which is inevitable and better learnt on time otherwise for any community denying the change….GAME OVER PEOPLE!!!
September 24th, 2009 at 7:44 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ1O9NlnugE
this is d world’s view about India.
October 13th, 2009 at 11:48 am
A humble request to all indians here.
Kindly channelize your energies in productive activities.
This blog is in no way proving that India is better.
Stop feeding a parasite. If you really wish good for your country, i suggest you start working hard and mind your own business.
I am an indian, even i too cannot stand abuses hurled at india, but hey you know whos is more economically, culturally, spiritually and militarily more stronger!
Having more nukes, in no ways shows that you are a super power. Your mentality makes your persona. So my dear indian friends, i humbly urge you to change your mentality and channelize such energies into your work, into academics, into research, into nation building.
Afterall, this will ensure that the gap between the rich and the poor (here i meant, the economic prowess of the 2 countries) widen.
October 14th, 2009 at 7:14 am
You should visit our Country to see the situation. The article is far from the truth, if fact “minorities” get more rights than us Hindus in most of the matters. You have reservations (fixed percentage) of seats in almost all Government colleges and Government services. But the fact is most of them never get filled.
You should reason and not just blindly attack. You just may end up shooting yourself.
October 22nd, 2009 at 11:41 am
Let’s discuss some facts here. I’m from Lucknow, the city of tehzeeb. I had a lot of muslim friends at school, and I had a privileged education (from the best school in the city). I am very moderate by upbringing, and one day, out of curiosity asked my friend, Syed,what did his maulvi saab teach him at home? My frind , moderate though he was, told me about Islam’s teaching that kids are god’s gift to mankind, and that family planning is against Allah’s message, amonst some other teachings, a number of them good. I am drwan to this message, again, because, according to Malthus, resources do not expand to fill the population explosion. To recall, during partition, Indian muslims with influence, power and greater money migrated to Pakistan, while daily wagers and more hard pressed people were left behind, because they had much to lose by losing a known area, and occupation for income. Now we had a situation, in which a community, in which ghettoisation induced by the partition, caused a community to become more insular. The craftsmen and artisans constituted a greater share of india’s muslims than before. (the rich ones had fled to Pakistan, selling off their properties) This class of people had economic reasons to have more children( more hands to work, with ready teachings of skill available to earn early inlife). This class also listened to their maulvis, who were influential people in a community which was slightly ghettoised, and understood that it was alright to have a large no of children. 30 years of this, brought up one and a half generation of manually skilled, but semi-literate people in larger percentage, than national average.
The figures qoted by the sachar report are statements of facts, and we Indians believe in understanding and bettering the state of affairs, so that we can improve the plight of our citizens be they muslim or hindus. Some misguided people on this blog, and i daresay the writer himself, misread facts as an admission of discrimination. It must give them vicarious pleasure to be doing so, because like Don Quixote and Sancho Panza, I find them tilting at imaginary windmills of muslim discrimiation being cause of lack of education.
Getting to discrimination against muslims, it is a product of the 1992 riots followed by bomb attacks in which both communities went out with swords, and kerosene to spread havoc, (after a nice hindu led govt of Mulayam singh had murdered 1000 hindus to prevent a Babri mosque from being destroyed by kar sewaks, and Pakistanis will never acknowledge this because that will show an Indian in a good light). These riots were followed by a gang, full of a*******, incidentally all belonging to a “green” religion, blowing up bombay and murdering 270 innocent people.These a******* were helped by ISI (read the witnesses and accused’s statements on this please) to blow up mumbai. This was followed by a large search operation against people supporting such an initiative. more than 95% of these people were muslims. This fact became the seed of distrust, which exists in bombay today, with respect to residence in housing societies.
This distrust is called discrimination by politically interested people, and people such as writers of this blog, jump on misinformation to produce goebbel type propaganda.
Sheikh chilli was a joke, Pakistan is not. It is a farce, and its intellectuals a blot.
Thank You
November 8th, 2009 at 11:47 am
@tusharsingh: @ibrahimsajidmalick Completely agree with Tushar.. It is true that Muslims in India are still backward in many ways but I can assure you Mr Ibrahim that we Muslims in India are more at home here and less discriminated than in America or the “secular” muslims in pakistan. Mind you I am not brushing off some fanatics who have targeted us but only wish to present my case as your blog appears as if India as a nation has a problem.
November 21st, 2009 at 3:07 am
nobody will win so just zip it..You people are more willing to start a war…And stop accusing eachother…Every country has problems…Even Usa has the highest rate of murder and rape…Majority of the population in South East Asia is hungry and poor..In this scenerio what are we proud of ..our missiles, our guns, our tanks and our pride..Which are all just brain washed into our minds by media, newspapers, Army and politicians…
November 22nd, 2009 at 3:29 am
@murad ali:
dude i thought we treated our indian muslims very well…n of ur not happy here then jus shut up go to ur heaven called PAKISTAN n u’ll then knw wats hell n heaven!
November 27th, 2009 at 8:54 am
U r calling India non secular, where Wasim Akram is the mentor of an IPL team and a regular commentator for Indian cricket channels, Atif Aslam records 100s of songs every year for Bollywood movies, Ghulam Ali too, and people love them, where Adnan Sami practically lives. These my friends are Pakistanis who are treated like stars in India. So talking about Indian Muslims being discriminated is bewilderingly far fetched. Indian cricket team has had Azhar as captain, Zaheer, Irfan, Yousuf, Kaif as stars, I ask you how did they get into the National side if their was discrimination? APJ Abdul Kalam has been India’s most respected personality and brain behind India’s status today as a Nuclear Power. Our PM is a wonderful, Oxford educated economist and he is a Sikh. India is a rising super power and I am afraid Pakistan is still obsessed with India and not looking after its own welfare. For the good of Pakistan, for the good of South Asia and for the good of the World please concentrate on your own problems.
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Dear friends i have a serious problem with the way you people love generalising certain stuff specially when it comes things taht are detrimental to Indian interest. Here is a guy who writes like an intellectual in sophisticated English, interviews Noam Chowmsky on international relations and then potrays one wrong judgement by the Indian court as the rule prevalent in India.
come on dude have a life. I seriously expect better stuff from you. Do u really read what people reply or you just love writing inflamatory statements and enjoy seeing individuals freaking out.
The entire world knows that there have been a lot of mistakes committed In India against there minorities and the Babri masjid masacre tops the chart amongst them but then we have done a lot more good as well and we would appreciate people with a more progressive and holistic approach. We have given our minority population a lot of protection under the minorities act and for this many a times the Hindus have had to face unfair deals as well. does that not seem to you as a symbol of pro pluralism. Jawaharlal Nehru forbid Rajendra Prasad to inaugurate temples, why dont you write your next blog on that?
If you are what claim to be my wish would certainly come true in your next blog. even though I want to congratulate you for realising pakistani involvement in 26/11. I realy appreciate that.
December 5th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
First of all let me assert that I am an Indian and an atheist born of Hindu parents. I don’t respect any religion. That said, I do not force my beliefs on other like religious zealots do, be they either Hindus, Muslims, Christians or any other. So my personal opinion is that no religious symbol should be brought to school. In fact, students in an academic institution should be totally insulated from such divides like religion, caste, language, wealth etc.
In the case of Mohammed Salim, he was studying in a Christian Missionary School which explains their, however despicable, attempt at asking him to shave his beard. That said, I have to admit that I really don’t see any logical reason why a person want to have a ridiculous beard just because a few old men decided that a few thousand years ago. Similarly I don’t understand why anyone would like to put a tilak on their forehead, does not look like much of a fashion statement to me. Also, most schools have rules barring students to keep long hair, long nails etc. Obviously those rules are hardly ever applied to Sikhs but in the case of Salim, they were applied to devastating effect. I am really sorry for him. And I am really sorry for the students of the school who are taught by a faculty that remained a mute spectator, if not an active participant, in such a despicable act.
The Supreme Court has obviously set a good precedent by judging in favour of Salim and thats the beauty of a free and fair judicial system. We, Indians, may make mistakes but we have check and balances to correct them. Something Pakistan can hardly claim.
Also let me inform you that my best friend is a Muslim. His sister ties rakhi on my hand each year. To me, they are family. I go to their place every year during Eid. I don’t believe in any of those customs but they do and when they invite me I can’t say no.
To me, it seems that a lot of Muslims are suffering from an identity crisis. And that is why they fall back on religion to provide them with one. And I have seen this with a lot of religious people and not just Muslims. The less confident a person is about himself/herself or of his/her abilities, the more religious he/she is.
“Salim’s story is a matter of personal freedom. I understand that schools must have a code of conduct, but if the code of conduct clashes with personal freedom, it is the latter that must prevail.”
I completely disagree. If my personal freedom means I come naked to school, is the school supposed to accept that. Or for that matter, how many schools in Paskistan would let a girl come without a burka? And by the way, Salim’s personal freedom was nowhere questioned. It were his religious freedom that were curbed. Religion was never his personal choice, it was forced on him by his Muslim parents, in much the same way in which Hindu or Christian or Sikh parents force their children to take up their fate. And that’s not right. A child must be allowed to think and reason and make decisions from logical conclusions.
“Indians have always presented themselves as being a model of religious pluralism; they have always maintained that they can coexist with Muslims, and that Muslims even have the potential to grow as a minority.
Nothing can be further from truth!
Muslims, it is often said, are India’s new untouchables.”
Yes, we Indians want to be a model of religious pluralism. Thats what this country was formed on. Yes, some very wrong things have happened in the name of religion. Anti-Sikh riots, Gujarat riots, those are horrible crimes. We are ashamed of them. And yet, a majority of are constantly trying to set an example of religious tolerance. Despite everything, we wont give up on our ideal, that of a country where everyone is treated equal. We at least try, unlike Pakistan.
“The Sachar report concluded that literacy rates among Muslims were much below the national average. Twenty-five percent of Muslim children ages 6-14 have either never attended school or have dropped out. Stating the obvious, the report says that expansion of educational opportunities since Independence has not led to a convergence of attainment levels between Muslims and all others. Dropout rates among Muslims are higher at the level of primary, middle and higher secondary schools. The disparity in graduation attainment rates since the 1970s is widening between Muslims and all other categories in both urban and rural areas.”
Well I agree that literacy rates among Muslims is far lower than the national average. Yes students might have dropped out as the report says. But where does it mention that religious discrimination made the students drop out?
“Only one out of 25 undergraduate students and one out of 50 postgraduate students in Indian colleges and universities are Muslim. Unemployment rate among Muslim graduates is the highest among all socio-religious communities.”
Again, I don’t see how admission in institutions of higher education is biased against Muslims. If you are not aware, in India, getting into any good educational institution requires merit. Take engineering colleges for example. I am an engineering student from a National Institute of Technology (NIT). Lakhs of students appeared for an entrance exam in which only 10,000 made it to NITs. Similarly, only around 5,000 make it to IITs. And its all based on merit. Marks are not added or deducted based on religion. Similarly for any college, what matters is your marks. If you have the marks, you will get admitted. I guess, this does not happen in Pakistan. If there are fewer undergrad and post grad Muslim students, its obviously because they are not competent enough. Period.
“It is heartening to know that in a country where Muslims have so little rights, minimal access to resources, and are discriminated against every day”
What little rights do you talk of? We have one constitution and one set of rights for all citizens. And in case you don’t realize, Muslims are Indian citizens. Please bear that in mind. And what minimal access to resources? Can you please care to explain why those resources that you mention are not accessible to Muslims? If I know my country’s constitution properly, all resources are equally accessible to all. Please don’t make such vague, rhetorical statements which might put your intellect to question.
“the judicial victory of a young man, Mohammad Salim, is still possible.”
Yes, Mr. Mallick it is. And you know why? Because we have a free and fair judicial system. Does Pakistan have that?
“I am hoping India’s justice system will ensure that this young man is compensated for time and emotional distress to a tune that will prohibit others from discrimination.”
Rest assure, we will do a good job at that. Thats why we are a free country.
February 13th, 2010 at 5:44 am
Once Jinnah Sahab was tried to be convinced that Congress was a secular party. Jinnah Sahab said,” Scratch a congressman and find a Mahasabai(Fanatic Hindu). Jinnah Sahab’s judgement was perfect. Most of the congress members were hidden fanatic Hindus.
February 14th, 2010 at 12:35 am
I Have a number of muslim friends they graduated with me and are working in large IT MNC’s .I never saw them facing poor conditions as MR Ibrahim has said.We have reservations for muslims-This helped them to come into good colleges and make a successful career.Mr Ibrahim i think you should stop crying on India and try to blog about your own country.Atleast the Muslims in India who are graduating a Coding and Making software..
May i guess what people in pakistan are doing? Making Bombs?
February 14th, 2010 at 1:19 pm
@Sandip Dev:
Look at what is happening to Shahrukh Khan.
February 14th, 2010 at 9:26 pm
@Sagheer ..
His movies are running houseful … this happens only in INDIA .. !
February 20th, 2010 at 3:42 am
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March 22nd, 2010 at 12:21 am
I think India is an open example of religious Pluralism. India is country only for those who can plunder the wealth of poor people. I think Indian Governemnt is making their Ordinary Public fool and are Pouring Wealth in their Personal Bank Accounts in the name of enmity with Pakistan